Astro Galaxy - a realistic space exploration game

Feedback Terminal => Suggestions => Topic started by: Dadds on January 18, 2014, 03:54:05 PM



Title: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 18, 2014, 03:54:05 PM
Dear Sir Emi,

After much work and deliberation (and complaining etc etc) with the combat system, particularly with PvP, I would like to see the system in particular the Order Of Battle (OOB) looked at.
The way I see it, if you have a heavily laden dreadnaught type vessel in orbit around a planet, or orbital station, to "protect its assets" then i find it a bit ridiculous that 2 scout ships can get past it and go on to destroy a planet or station. So what i would love to see is a tier-type combat stage where:
1. Ships cant attack orbital stations unless first they overcome orbiting ships;
2. Ships cant attack planets until they first overcome orbiting stations and;
3. If a combat ship only fires 1 weapon out of her arsenal of 30 Mark MM lasers, i would actually like to see her remain in the field of combat to maybe get another shot off or 20? (I know you are working on this, or was talking about working on it)
And if we are going to persist with a 1 shot only policy with energy weaponry, then i would love to see something like advanced energy science, which has more than one shot per round, like double turreted laser or railgun, or perhaps an energy or ammo module that can allow for "X" amount of shots before depleting, depending on the mark of the module.

The other thing i would like to see is to moderate the power  of the marine module somewhat, to bring it back in line with reality.
I dont believe it is realistic that a laser can only get one shot off, but physically boarding ships can be done multiple times. That would mean a troop would have to be dispatched, bust open the airlock of a ship, kill/capture/torture (if you have time) all the crew and marine on board, then return back to the mother ship (who incidentally is also quite busy doing maneuvers herself in a field of combat). Then they would have to re-arm, fix up any wounded, launch again and board the 2nd ship, etc etc. Poor overworked Marine corps!!
Here are my thoughts on how to bring this scenario back to reality:
1. Marines should not be allowed to board a ship unless that ships shields are down (read all of your science fiction, watch all of your science fiction movies & series...not once can i recall that a marine can board an space-tight vessel without some of its critical systems being taken down, ie shields. Not even in star trek could you teleport to another ship "in the old days" when a ship had its combat shields up and in place)
2. Marine modules should also be limited to a one shot rule so that if a vessel has 12 modules installed, and it takes 3 modules to board a rival ship, that vessel should only have 9 modules left to use, as it is with energy weaponry.
I personally would like to see both of these things implemented, but either one or the other would be acceptable in bringing the combat system back into line a little with regard to marine modules.

Regards,

Dadds
 


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 19, 2014, 01:14:58 AM
Sounds like some good ideas.  The way it is now with marines is just rediculas.  Currently normal weapons only fire once per combat making their usefulness against multiple ships limited.  Nukes are powerful but near useless because they are used up after their use and are too expensive.  Meanwhile we have marines which can not only fire once against every target they come against, they are extremely cheap and deal just as much damage as nukes.  As it stands now all the weapon stuff is unbalanced.  Back when I joined weapons seemed better balanced.  What ruined the balance was limiting regular weapons to firing once per battle rather then once per round (per target).   Yes marines was a cheap way to go back then, but there was a better balance and more usefulness for regular weapons.   Also like Dadds I can't see how a boarding pod can possibly board a ship while the shields are still up.  This isn't even transporter tech.  Which in Star Trek up until a certain point they couldn't even transport through shields.  The only way possible for a physical target to get through the shielding  was to know where the weak point in the shield and modulate their own shields to match.  Not an easy feat either. The only time I recall it being done was when Picard was undercover and helped to do this to the Enterprise.  Star Wars I will admit at times were a little more iffy on shields though. Such as the A-Wing flying into the bridge of a ship in Return of the Jedi. Anakin in The Phantom Menace able to somehow fly through the shields into a hanger bay and then trashing the ship from the inside.  The thing is I can't even see how this can be the case with the marines on here. After all the shields are still brought down first.  Getting inside would mean trashing the inside of the ship making the shields and armor not even matter. 


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 19, 2014, 01:51:05 PM
It is easy for me to see marines with power armor, propulsion system, 3 small nuke missiles on one shoulder, a big blaster on the other shoulder, explosive in hand to blast the ship hull... Like in Starship trooper (not the film but the novel) and slow speed to pass the ennemy shields. With imagination, anything can be. It is to the game designer to decide. It is not to prevent us from complaining if we do not like it. I have invest a great amount in marines, if the rules changes it will be at great cost to me.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 19, 2014, 03:32:58 PM
To me it doesn't make sense on slow speed being able to get through shields. Especially since they seem to actually just be doing damage to the shield before the rest. If they were able to pass through it then damage to the shields wouldn't even be needed.    I understand it would be a loss to you.  But right now they are essentually extremely cheap nukes that you never run out of. Only downside is they are used last. It is just unbalanced.  I would think that you would rather have the combat be more balanced then worry about some losses there.  Your tech and income is more then enough to easily adapt to any changes made.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 19, 2014, 03:42:55 PM
My point was simply that it is possible to imagine such marines.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 19, 2014, 03:54:27 PM
Point taken.  Though to me it would look like our shields are no better then the shields the Gungans used in The Phantom Menace lol.  Thought that doesn't appear to be what is happening here.  I just want a better balanced combat system myself.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 19, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
I definitely agree with the suggestion made by Dadds and I actually have an addition to make. With regards to the combat timer I'm under the impression that of course the power of your ships determines their length but that generally it takes so long because you are powering up ALL of your weapons/shields etc. Now if we take Dadds energy module idea into consideration this is an idea I would really love to see added as well. Give the player the option to only power up a certain amount of weapons/shields. This would open up the game for the following possibilities.
#1. When you have a ship with like 10 mil power fighting someone with a ship of 300k power, it makes no sense to power up all of your weapons and shields to take care of it, why not just power up what you need to get the job done? Thus it would lower combat timers.
#2. If these energy modules only have limited energy to power weapons or shields or something then by only powering up what modules you need in order to win you can conserve these modules for bigger fights, or vice versa you could make your enemy waste some of it's energy by attacking it with a ship designed for that exact purpose.
#3. With the ability to choose to only power up some modules rather than all of them it enables a great deal of more tactical variety, more to this point it could allow more surprises to happen where someone with a large and powerful ship could underestimate their opponent and end up being defeated because they didn't use enough of their modules to fight.

As far as how to implement something like this I believe there are two fairly simple ways you could do so. Either you could go into the ship's combat settings and turn certain modules on/off before the fight (though the power of your ships doesn't update very quickly so that would take a certain amount of figuring out how long you would have to wait before it took effect and that might reduce the effectiveness of this idea), or you could just have combat default on using all the modules like it does now and then after the combat timer has started there could be an option to reduce the timer not with QP's but rather by reducing the amount of energy your ship will use and thus the number of modules that will be active in the battle.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 19, 2014, 04:06:40 PM
It is already possible to power up and down modules.  You just rotate the crew in and out of them as needed using marine bays and living quarters.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 19, 2014, 04:13:27 PM
True but that doesn't actually lower your power since in the case of marines especially, they still attack. Of course with powering down shield by removing the personel it would probably lower your power significantly. Partially it also kind of bothers me that our ships seem to have infinite energy to power shields and weapons and engines and what not, in a lot of sci-fi movies/series taking out whatever generates energy for that ships weapons/shields/engines is a critical tactical move that often plays a major part in those battles/chases.

*Edit to remove typo's


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 19, 2014, 04:15:18 PM
Actually it can lower the power by quite a bit. Even on the weapons. Though if your running a boarding ship then you will not be able to really power down.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 19, 2014, 04:28:59 PM
Hmm, well yea I guess it would lower your power a lot more than it does for me, I guess I didn't take into consideration that higher level weapons still take the same amount of personel to operate them. Still I would really like to see something like that implemented, I think it would add a better sense of realism to the battles as well as create more variety in tactics.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 19, 2014, 04:34:28 PM
I agree.  It would certainly be better to be able to do it that way.  Then we wouldn't have all this crappy needless crew shuffling.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 21, 2014, 09:11:26 AM
yeah i often use power downs to deal with nest cleanups and small targets....the trick is to not have a huge marine contingent as some players build. That only gives you one option: long combat timers with powerful rated ships.
Consider this Fenix: a MK I marine holds what 1000 marine? a laser holds 50. I equip 3 or 4 laser class (mmmm lets not show off with numbers, say mark C or CL) Ok a mark C laser fully manned has 154,500 power of weaponry, a Mark CL has 229,500 power. ok maths time 3 fully manned laser C = 463,500 power to weapons.
Power them down to equal 0 for that module, and you add 150 marine to your marine module (about 450 power or so)
That is a power down ;) OK not everyone has a mark C or CL laying around to idly power down, but the top and clever corp do, and is a huge tactic in reducing combat timers to suit the specific target. Time is money. I hope i dont give away too many of our tactics to point out these legitimate tricks to tactical combat scenarios.
If you just go with 20 Mark M marine modules however, doesnt matter what you do to your weaponry to reduce combat timers, it wont matter much what you try to do. We at IMG try to be a bit more versatile in our ship building. Happy to show you a blueprint or two one day ;)


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 21, 2014, 09:47:13 AM
and @ Matamure:
Quote
My point was simply that it is possible to imagine such marines.
Sorry, but i live in the real world. ie, real combat world, real flesh and blood, knowing lots about technologies and weaponry. Sorry, but if you were to throw at me 75K screaming, blood-thirsty marines at me, i would just find a mediocre Hiroshima (read OLD TECH) nuke, to just remove those frothing at the mouth fighters and move on without a blink of an eye. This is even before you manage to somehow punch a hole through the side of my electro-shielded, and diamond fortified, armor on the side of a juggernaught that can orbit a stellar body without issue. Not possible in the real world, and any fantasy reader would probably also chuck the book away as being too fanciful.
I am sorry if you have invested all your power into marine, as has Raphael. (and i notice that the two of you are the "top two" players hmmmm another point made with imbalance)
The simple fact of the matter is: We could all just as easily invest in marine only tech, and be up there with you and raphael....so then what do we have? every player building the very same ship and just not doing anything imaginative in the game. When the two ships meet for a combat, it will take over a week of combat timer to resolve, unless one party gets bored or forgets and clicks on jump by accident.
So that would be the end of pvp or challenge. so why have weaponry at all?
Its nice to play some science FICTION games, but it has to revolve around some real sciences, or it just becomes ridiculous. (my fluffy bunny with a BB gun beats your tactical, thermo-nuclear device just because i says it does)
The game states its a realistic space exploration simulator...well, not in this universe it isnt


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 21, 2014, 12:58:15 PM
verything beats the fluffy bunny...


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: lisunken on January 21, 2014, 03:57:53 PM
I agree with Dadds OOB format for the fleet.  Also, Marine should not able board or be use at all. if the ship shield is  up and armor or air locker is not breached. Only when shield or armor / air lock is breach them marine can be use.  That my take on marine.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 21, 2014, 05:16:20 PM
Yea certainly I understood the concept of powering down modules by changing the personel on it though I don't have such high level modules to use as an example so I didn't see how drastic a change it could make. Still I feel like we should have energy generator modules to power all of our weapons and shields and things, it would just give the game a more realistic feel in my opinion.

As for marines I have a sightly different opinion. I don't have a problem with them going through armor and shields however I don't like the way it works now. For example the most basic standard marine module can go through a ship with 5 mil shields and just do it's damage? That makes no sense to me. The way I would like to see it work would be something like this. The higher level a marine unit would be the larger it would be and since it takes research time it's technology would be more advanced so I feel like maybe the marine unit should only be able to get through a set amount of shields/armor. For example a mk 1 marine unit can go through 1,000 units of shield/armor, and if the target has more than that then the marine unit gets destroyed in the attempt. This would make it so that weapons have a use even on a marine heavy ship and keep these marine only ships at least honest in that if they want to go through a ship with 5 mil shielding then they are going to have to create a really high level marine module and not spam 50 mk 100's or something. Of course the numbers I'm using here are just an example, I'm sure a bit of research would have to be done in order to find a proper number to really make it balanced. My reasoning behind the idea is that a meteor burns up in our atmosphere which basically serves as a shield, but some of them do make it through given the right circumstances, I feel like the same concept can be applied here.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 22, 2014, 05:12:11 PM
I like the idea of stations and planets being actively defended by ships in orbit, so an attacking ship has to either defeat or absorb the damage of the defending fleet before they can attack the stations and then planets.

I also like the idea that a ship should be able to fire all remaining weapons after the main attack waves:

e.g.
First wave (Weapons and boarding):
100k ship A1      vs.  50k ship D1
1k ship    A2      vs.  50k ship D2
1k ship    A3      vs.  50k ship D3

The 50k D2 should be able to fire again if it defeated the 1k A2, however on the second wave there should be no boarding and just weapons fire

Second wave (weapons flyby until all defender ships have fired all weapons):
100k A1 vs. 50k D2
100k A1 vs. 50k D3

Then if supposedly there is a station or planet involved and the Attacker is still standing, it will join the battle on the third wave.
Third wave (weapons and marines):
100k A1 vs. S1
100k A1 vs. P1

There should also be an option to set a ship as protected target, like send a mothership or important ship to fight only in the back line while on defense (third wave).



Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 22, 2014, 05:24:42 PM
I like that...


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 22, 2014, 07:31:42 PM
That all sounds like good stuff certainly.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 22, 2014, 11:12:24 PM
For marines, I am thinking of adding fatigue because of re-boarding.

Marines would fatigue in battle. For each boarding attempt they would lose 10% Attack Power, down to a minimum of 0 after the 10th boarding attempt. So each time the marines are going out they are getting more fatigued, until they can not do any more damage.

The fatigue can also be adjusted by how the boarding went, so if the marines used 10% or more of their power they would fatigue 10%, but if they used less then 10%, like 1%-9% because it was an easy battle, they they would only get that fatigue, with minimum 1%.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 22, 2014, 11:29:27 PM
Sounds like some good ideas there SirEmi.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 23, 2014, 12:16:06 AM
Will fatigue cause a loss of manpower?


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 23, 2014, 01:34:31 AM
SirEmi: I like all the ideas you bring so far.

One question: While doing nest missions with very high power ships ( 20 millions range) equipped only with marines (6 MK M), once I had to face 21 and an other time 23 ennemy ships. With your proposed modifications, would it be possible to win the battle? Will you modify the nest mission so that this situation will not hapend anymore? 3 weeks ago, I have played with a 35 millions ship for a short time!


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: lisunken on January 23, 2014, 01:11:56 PM
Great.  When can this be implemented.   :wow:


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 23, 2014, 01:44:09 PM
SirEmi: I like all the ideas you bring so far.

One question: While doing nest missions with very high power ships ( 20 millions range) equipped only with marines (6 MK M), once I had to face 21 and an other time 23 ennemy ships. With your proposed modifications, would it be possible to win the battle? Will you modify the nest mission so that this situation will not hapend anymore? 3 weeks ago, I have played with a 35 millions ship for a short time!

With marines fatigue those missions will certainly get harder with one ship that relies only on the marines as after 10 boarding attempts they will no longer do any damage.
My guess is to adapt and split the 35 mil ship into 2 ships of ~20 mil or so...

So yeah when those changes come in, you might need to change tactic a bit or install some weapons maybe.

I'm also thinking of making PvE attack timers e.g. missions specific to only take into account the attacker power rating.
This will mean that you could use specialized buster fleets against hordes of enemy ships, and you can reduce timer by bringing less fleet power to the battle. The attack timer could be AttackerPower multiplied by 2, in general reducing attack timers for missions and stuff. For PvP attack timers would remain the same, depending on A+D power.




Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 23, 2014, 01:58:27 PM
Will fatigue cause a loss of manpower?

No, fatigue will only reduce the effectiveness of the troops on the next attack, it will not result in any casualties or drop in HP power of the marines.

It will decrease the attack power depending on how hard the previous attack was.
10% or more power used means 10% fatigue, <10% power used means 1%-9% (power used rounded down with min 1% / attack)
With each new marine attack, fatigue for that ship's marines increases until it is 100%, then they will no longer do any damage.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 23, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
For the option of splitting a 35 million ship in 2, it is not practical because of the cost of the license (around 96 millions for me now).

I like the idea of modeling the power of a ship to reduce timer but with marines it is not possible (I can not put those in cargo bays, can I). If I could move then in a state (let's say: stasis in cargo bays) where they would not attack and count toward total power, that would be great. I already pack 375750 marines in 100 m3 lol.

Be careful before reducing the timer for COM mission (you know, I like it very much) because it will mean more solars for us big players.

And I don't mind adapting to new rules, I have done it in the past. I am already planing for the rules outlined here :)


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 23, 2014, 04:23:54 PM
Ok so let me see if I have this all correct. First off weapons will fire multiple times? You mentioned "a ship should be able to fire all remaining weapons after the main attack waves", did you mean anything particular by using the word remaining? For example if you had 10 lasers on a ship they all fire and then any other weapons on the attacker and defending ship go off until all weapons have been fired, will a new round automatically start where the lasers then fire again? Also would these rounds continue until someone is defeated or until some number of rounds have passed? If all of those assumptions are correct then definitely a major improvement.

Then ships will be attacked first, followed by stations and planetary forces after those ships have been defeated? So if I had 3 ships orbiting a mining station any attacker would have to defeat and force those 3 ships to jump before being able to touch my station or mining facilities on the planet? Again a major improvement.

Lastly marines will have diminishing returns after each attack via your fatigue mechanic so that each successive attack is less powerful than the previous one and eventually they can become too fatigued to fight essentially? I do worry that the percentage you used won't be enough to keep it balanced at higher levels however I guess we won't know that until we get there and it is certainly an improvement over the way they work now so that works for me I suppose.

Any sort of estimated time you can give us for when these changes might happen? Like idk next month? Spring? Summer? lol


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 23, 2014, 04:31:47 PM
Regarding managing ship power by powering down modules:

A setting can be added to Ship->Weapons that will affect the ship power, weapon setting disable (not for nukes), but for all other weapon systems and maybe for shields too.
When set to disabled, the weapon will no longer fire in combat or count towards power rating. In the view ship screen, it might show with gray area to mark it as disabled.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 23, 2014, 04:49:56 PM
Ok so let me see if I have this all correct. First off weapons will fire multiple times? You mentioned "a ship should be able to fire all remaining weapons after the main attack waves", did you mean anything particular by using the word remaining? For example if you had 10 lasers on a ship they all fire and then any other weapons on the attacker and defending ship go off until all weapons have been fired, will a new round automatically start where the lasers then fire again? Also would these rounds continue until someone is defeated or until some number of rounds have passed? If all of those assumptions are correct then definitely a major improvement.

Ships will still fire each of their weapons once. However, if there are still weapons to be fired after the first round, then those weapons will fire in the second run until depleted. Sometimes it happens that a big ship with lots of weapons defeats multiple smaller ships, and so that big ship will continue to fire it's weapons and fend off the enemy swarm, instead of only fighting one ships as it is now.

Then ships will be attacked first, followed by stations and planetary forces after those ships have been defeated? So if I had 3 ships orbiting a mining station any attacker would have to defeat and force those 3 ships to jump before being able to touch my station or mining facilities on the planet? Again a major improvement.

The third wave happens if some ships get past the enemy ships, then those ships will be able to assault the stations and then the planets of the enemy fleet. So yes, if you have 3 ships protecting a station, the attacker will need to defeat your 3 ships by pounding on them before being able to attack the station. The third wave is a battle of it's own, the remaining attacker ships will attack the stations and planetary forces with their remaining weapons and fatigued marines.

Any sort of estimated time you can give us for when these changes might happen? Like idk next month? Spring? Summer? lol

It wouldn't take too long once there's a good idea it usually gets implemented very fast. I'm very satisfied with the new server upgrade we did, and working on the updates now.



Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 23, 2014, 04:58:18 PM
I see... I'm a little disappointed that weapons won't be firing multiple times though. How exactly is the rest any different than the way it works now though? I don't have much experience in PvP but against nest COM missions my ship already does fire it's weapons at multiple ships if I beat the first one and still have weapons that haven't fired yet. Are the PvE and PvP mechanics different in that way? Or am I missing something else?

Glad to hear that upgrade went well and glad to hear it will be coming soon then.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 23, 2014, 05:03:52 PM
Fenix say you have 2 ships and your enemy has 1 ship and a station right now. 

Your first ship right now engages the highest power target.  Then even if all weapon's aren't fired, your other ship will attack the next target rather then the first ship.   It is also the same when defending. Say that big ship fends off your bigger ship. Your other ship will still go on to attack that 2nd target there.   


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 23, 2014, 05:55:07 PM
SirEmi: "Regarding managing ship power by powering down modules:

A setting can be added to Ship->Weapons that will affect the ship power, weapon setting disable (not for nukes), but for all other weapon systems and maybe for shields too.
When set to disabled, the weapon will no longer fire in combat or count towards power rating. In the view ship screen, it might show with gray area to mark it as disabled."


I am very pleased with this idea. Thx


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 24, 2014, 12:41:01 AM
SirEmi: "Regarding managing ship power by powering down modules:

A setting can be added to Ship->Weapons that will affect the ship power, weapon setting disable (not for nukes), but for all other weapon systems and maybe for shields too.
When set to disabled, the weapon will no longer fire in combat or count towards power rating. In the view ship screen, it might show with gray area to mark it as disabled."


I am very pleased with this idea. Thx


If they would effect the power by disabling then with nukes it should do the same.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 24, 2014, 02:44:21 AM
Fenix say you have 2 ships and your enemy has 1 ship and a station right now. 

Your first ship right now engages the highest power target.  Then even if all weapon's aren't fired, your other ship will attack the next target rather then the first ship.   It is also the same when defending. Say that big ship fends off your bigger ship. Your other ship will still go on to attack that 2nd target there.   

Yea I got the whole order of battle thing I just don't understand what is actually changing about weapons...


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 24, 2014, 04:06:21 AM
what I see is that while each weapon fires only once, if there are weapons that didn't fire during wave one, they  can fire during wave two, and then move on to wave three ...marines attack during wave one, do not attack during wave two, and participate in wave three fatigued...


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 24, 2014, 04:45:16 AM
Fenix say you have 2 ships and your enemy has 1 ship and a station right now. 

Your first ship right now engages the highest power target.  Then even if all weapon's aren't fired, your other ship will attack the next target rather then the first ship.   It is also the same when defending. Say that big ship fends off your bigger ship. Your other ship will still go on to attack that 2nd target there.   

Yea I got the whole order of battle thing I just don't understand what is actually changing about weapons...


What this will mean is with the change,  say your 1 ship defends off the first ship, it will then take on the 2nd ship rather then be skipped over.  So it will fire off any weapons it didn't use before.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 24, 2014, 04:21:20 PM
Yea... I don't see that as a change to weapons at all but rather a change to which target they fire upon which falls under Order of Battle. Any weapons that didn't get fired when attacking the first target would fire at the 2nd target regardless, this just changes what that 2nd target is so far as I can tell. Idk maybe I just can't see the difference because of the way I think...

Personally I don't quite understand the way the order works right now... not so much how it works but why it works that way. I don't really care for the whole "most powerful ship attacks first and attacks the most powerful defending ship" thing. I guess maybe this is just my own view or stubborness but I honestly think it makes way more sense to allow people to choose the order in which their ships would attack and defend, which I guess that part about being able to prioritize your ships for defense is partially what I would want. I would prefer some kind of fleet link on the left there where you could assign ships to a particular battle group and make Ship A go 2nd Ship B go 4th Ship C go 1st and Ship D go 3rd or something like that. I mean we have to sit around for hours and some of you stronger guys have to sit around for days or even weeks for a timer to go through anyway, it's not like we don't have time to fiddle with settings to optimize our attacks.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 25, 2014, 02:35:12 AM
Setting for defense should really have to be done before a timer is started.  If an attacker shows up and attacks, realistically there shouldn't be as much time to mobilize beyond whatever settings they set before.  The attack on the other hand would have had time to prepare before hand and decide how he wants things before starting the attack.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 25, 2014, 04:23:55 AM
@Fenix: I guess simply explained in a multiple platform PvP encounter, the way it stands now is if an attacker with a huge weapons loadout is trying to defend a target, say an orbital or a mining outpost, this ship is easily circumvented by simply sending out 2 small ships. What happens is the strongest of the small ships takes on an unbeatable foe, gets creamed in the first laser strike and em-jumps. Then, the 2nd ship lines up against an orbital, or a planet, and loots, takes the spoils, or blows the station without the mega-ship defender having any other say in the matter. He just sits on and watches in abject horror that all those shiny new guns didnt fire one shot in anger and couldnt defend against 2 pea-shooters.

Many times my weapons optimized, specialized ships only ever get to fire 1 or 2 of their weapons before they leave the field because they vanquish their direct opponent in that first strike.

Trust me, what Sir Emi suggests will be a HUGE change to PvP and PvE encounters and will make the bigger ships with weapons loads much more capable of defending a colony.
I for one am pleased that Sir Emi and so many others find the suggestions to an order of battle favourable as well as suggestions to help make the resilience of marines reduce so they do not become an perpetual, infinite fighting group.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 25, 2014, 03:47:14 PM
What Dadds said, my thoughts exactly  :)

I will also add that to be able to get to the third wave, the attacker will have to sustain damage from all defending ships until they are either defeated or they exhaust their weapons. So if a defending ship defeats an attacker ship and it still has weapons online, it will target another attacking ship, until all weapons have fired or the defending ship jumps or all attackers are defeated.



Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 25, 2014, 04:14:15 PM
Ok so what I'm getting from that is that weapons aren't changing at all, it's just the Order of Batttle/targeting that will be changing which is quite a boost to defense. And also the marines which is good because they were definitley unbalanced. Sounds like good stuff to me like I said before. By third wave you mean attacking stations and planentary forces? Well yea if the attacker can take all the hits from the defending fleet and either defeat them or make them deplete all their weapons that is fine, does that include marines as well? Meaning the attacker would have to endure 10 hits from any marine modules that the defending fleet might have? Though I would think the battle would be over before that could happen but eh anything is possible I guess lol.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 25, 2014, 04:52:38 PM
Wave 1: Ships vs Ships

Wave 2: Ships vs Stations

Wave 3: Ships vs planet/moon/asteroid


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 26, 2014, 04:28:14 PM
I also like the idea that a ship should be able to fire all remaining weapons after the main attack waves:

e.g.
First wave (Weapons and boarding):
100k ship A1      vs.  50k ship D1
1k ship    A2      vs.  50k ship D2
1k ship    A3      vs.  50k ship D3

The 50k D2 should be able to fire again if it defeated the 1k A2, however on the second wave there should be no boarding and just weapons fire

Second wave (weapons flyby until all defender ships have fired all weapons):
100k A1 vs. 50k D2
100k A1 vs. 50k D3

Then if supposedly there is a station or planet involved and the Attacker is still standing, it will join the battle on the third wave.
Third wave (weapons and marines):
100k A1 vs. S1
100k A1 vs. P1

There should also be an option to set a ship as protected target, like send a mothership or important ship to fight only in the back line while on defense (third wave).

That indicates to me that stations and planetary forces would be attacked at the same time Jam.

*Edit* In hindsight I think this quote actually answers my question regarding marines in the 2nd wave... I think...


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: raphael on January 26, 2014, 07:11:14 PM
SirEmi, I have a question and I just want to know for sure: what will happen if the ships of both sides fail to defeat each other (results in a draw)? Will the stations and planetary modules of both sides still engage in battle? Will the station immediately attack the enemy's station or attack the enemy's ship first? What determines whose station acts first?


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 26, 2014, 07:18:22 PM
I also like the idea that a ship should be able to fire all remaining weapons after the main attack waves:

e.g.
First wave (Weapons and boarding):
100k ship A1      vs.  50k ship D1
1k ship    A2      vs.  50k ship D2
1k ship    A3      vs.  50k ship D3

The 50k D2 should be able to fire again if it defeated the 1k A2, however on the second wave there should be no boarding and just weapons fire

Second wave (weapons flyby until all defender ships have fired all weapons):
100k A1 vs. 50k D2
100k A1 vs. 50k D3

Then if supposedly there is a station or planet involved and the Attacker is still standing, it will join the battle on the third wave.
Third wave (weapons and marines):
100k A1 vs. S1
100k A1 vs. P1

There should also be an option to set a ship as protected target, like send a mothership or important ship to fight only in the back line while on defense (third wave).

That indicates to me that stations and planetary forces would be attacked at the same time Jam.

*Edit* In hindsight I think this quote actually answers my question regarding marines in the 2nd wave... I think...

Also look at what else has been said too. It sounded like to me that stations would only engage in combat after defending ships are defeated.


Quote
SirEmi, I have a question and I just want to know for sure: what will happen if the ships of both sides fail to defeat each other (results in a draw)? Will the stations and planetary modules of both sides still engage in battle?


Good question.  My suggestion would be to let the 2 ships just keep pounding away on each other in another round of combat if there are no other ships on both sides. 


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: raphael on January 26, 2014, 07:21:45 PM
LOL, I didnt expect someone to reply so soon. I added a few more questions to my original post.

Anyway, hopefully SirEmi can clear all questions first before implementing an update.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 26, 2014, 08:49:23 PM
it was a good question Raphael. I would suggest, in a draw, that the third wave never happens. Defender blocks, and remains in place, end of argument until the attacker can muster more forces to overcome the defender. The outpost (and in particular, the colony) should NEVER fire except in extreme circumstances where it is fight or die (wave 3 scenario when there is nothing but attacking ship and defender base left). While a combat ship defender remains, they should be blissfully unaware of the arm-wrestle staged above them lol
Or, as JamJul suggests, (though now the combat gets really complex to work out) that the remaining vessels do a whole new round of attacks, last ship standing. (Note: That can be done manually anyway in a stalemate, by clicking attack again in the hopes to catch the defender off guard a little and out of breath)


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 26, 2014, 09:41:30 PM
Or, once the ships fight each other to a draw (after two rounds), the marines can attack stations/planetary forces in wave three (fatigued, of course).  This is because the defending ships (while still in orbit) are not able defend.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 27, 2014, 01:36:08 AM
Or, once the ships fight each other to a draw (after two rounds), the marines can attack stations/planetary forces in wave three (fatigued, of course).  This is because the defending ships (while still in orbit) are not able defend.

The thing is they shouldn't be able to approach them with the marines because of the stuff  blocking the way.


Quote
(Note: That can be done manually anyway in a stalemate, by clicking attack again in the hopes to catch the defender off guard a little and out of breath)

That just means another lengthy combat timer. Not something I care for.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 27, 2014, 01:44:10 AM
The thing is they shouldn't be able to approach them with the marines because of the stuff  blocking the way.

That just means another lengthy combat timer. Not something I care for.


What stuff would be blocking the marines?  Or would the fatigued marines fight ship to ship in this scenerio of wave three?

And wouldn't the timer restart with the new ship-to-ship combat?  I feel if you fight to a draw to begin with, you will fight to a draw the next time (unless you step up power - resulting in different odds and a new timer anyway).  Between the two wave one attacks, the shields should re-energize (the only thing that would affect the power levels would be if any armor was present and was damaged).


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 27, 2014, 03:18:49 AM
The thing is they shouldn't be able to approach them with the marines because of the stuff  blocking the way.


That just means another lengthy combat timer. Not something I care for.


Quote
What stuff would be blocking the marines?  Or would the fatigued marines fight ship to ship in this scenerio of wave three?

And wouldn't the timer restart with the new ship-to-ship combat?  I feel if you fight to a draw to begin with, you will fight to a draw the next time (unless you step up power - resulting in different odds and a new timer anyway).  Between the two wave one attacks, the shields should re-energize (the only thing that would affect the power levels would be if any armor was present and was damaged).


Let's see there is the ship or ships they fail to defeat.  Possible Space Stations in between the planet and the ships.  Do you see where I am going? In order for the marines to get there their ship has to be able to get there? That isn't happening if the ship can't get past the ships blocking the planet.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 27, 2014, 04:36:40 AM
Quote
And wouldn't the timer restart with the new ship-to-ship combat?  I feel if you fight to a draw to begin with, you will fight to a draw the next time (unless you step up power - resulting in different odds and a new timer anyway).  Between the two wave one attacks, the shields should re-energize (the only thing that would affect the power levels would be if any armor was present and was damaged).
The odds would be different. All those ships and possibly orbital stations which were em-jumped or destroyed would be initially removed from the equation, or will be marine/personnel depleted, resulting in different odds to win/lose. The other thing that can change is the attacker can realize he cant get past the opponent, so bring in more fresh troop and try again.  Naturally the defender will also be considering bolstering up the defences in much the same way. Its how to create a true stronghold of operations and seat of power etc. How strongly does the defender want to keep the location and how strongly does the attacker wish to remove that position?
I suspect in the future there may be a reason for wanting to hold onto a planet or system as the game and story develops. As it stands right now, it is a near impossibility to hold a position, unless you have more ships, and more power per ship, than the opponent has, and willing to sit them there 100% of the time to guard that position.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 27, 2014, 03:17:11 PM
SirEmi, I have a question and I just want to know for sure: what will happen if the ships of both sides fail to defeat each other (results in a draw)? Will the stations and planetary modules of both sides still engage in battle? Will the station immediately attack the enemy's station or attack the enemy's ship first? What determines whose station acts first?

On wave two (weapons flyby), the attacker has to defeat / jump all the defender ships before he can attack the station / planetary force.
If the attacker does not have enough firepower to overcome the defender ships, the attack will fail due to defender ships blockade.

Even if the defender ships do not have any more weapons to fire, they will blockade the attacker and absorb weapon hits, until all defender ships have jumped or the attacker has no more weapons to fire. Only if all defender ships have jumped will the attacker be permitted to attempt an attack on a station / planet.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 27, 2014, 04:14:31 PM
I understand now I thank you or the clarification.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Fenix on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
Yea I also don't think it would make much sense for stations to actually go on the attack, they aren't offensive weapons really or at least I don't think they were meant to be though you could fill them out with that purpose in mind. I guess that might depend on your frame of mind but I see them pretty much as defensive platforms with various non combat facilities on board.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 27, 2014, 05:02:21 PM
SirEmi, what you say make a lot of sense :)


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: raphael on January 27, 2014, 07:12:48 PM
SirEmi, I have a question and I just want to know for sure: what will happen if the ships of both sides fail to defeat each other (results in a draw)? Will the stations and planetary modules of both sides still engage in battle? Will the station immediately attack the enemy's station or attack the enemy's ship first? What determines whose station acts first?

On wave two (weapons flyby), the attacker has to defeat / jump all the defender ships before he can attack the station / planetary force.
If the attacker does not have enough firepower to overcome the defender ships, the attack will fail due to defender ships blockade.

Even if the defender ships do not have any more weapons to fire, they will blockade the attacker and absorb weapon hits, until all defender ships have jumped or the attacker has no more weapons to fire. Only if all defender ships have jumped will the attacker be permitted to attempt an attack on a station / planet.

I see. What if the attacking ship defeats the defending ship but gets defeated by the defending station, will the defending station attack the attacker's station (and planetary modules) or will the battle immediately stop?


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on January 27, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
SirEmi, I have a question and I just want to know for sure: what will happen if the ships of both sides fail to defeat each other (results in a draw)? Will the stations and planetary modules of both sides still engage in battle? Will the station immediately attack the enemy's station or attack the enemy's ship first? What determines whose station acts first?

On wave two (weapons flyby), the attacker has to defeat / jump all the defender ships before he can attack the station / planetary force.
If the attacker does not have enough firepower to overcome the defender ships, the attack will fail due to defender ships blockade.

Even if the defender ships do not have any more weapons to fire, they will blockade the attacker and absorb weapon hits, until all defender ships have jumped or the attacker has no more weapons to fire. Only if all defender ships have jumped will the attacker be permitted to attempt an attack on a station / planet.

I see. What if the attacking ship defeats the defending ship but gets defeated by the defending station, will the defending station attack the attacker's station (and planetary modules) or will the battle immediately stop?


I would imagine the attacker's stations will continue to fight.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on January 28, 2014, 09:16:54 AM
Unsure why you would be using orbital stations to attack, unless for whatever reason you wanted to repel a ship from an orbit that contained an orbital. I would still like to think while there are ships of both sides in orbit, that orbitals, or planets dont engage what-so-ever, until they desperately have to defend, which brings in to effect the reinforcement benefit/bonus that orbitals and planets get. If you wanted to use an orbital as an assault vessel, then that reinforcement benefit should be removed. You cant "dig in" when you are on the attack.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 28, 2014, 10:04:25 AM
Ralph question intrigue me. I think he refer to the fact that 2 ennemies can have each space stations & ships around the same planet, like it was artound Jupiter at a time.  How do the space stations will or not participate in the battle and when.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 28, 2014, 08:09:56 PM
It appears to me that the stations are for defense only and will not participate in an attack (not even against each other).


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on January 30, 2014, 04:10:47 PM
If the attacker has stations / planetary forces, these will participate in the attack like this:

If attacker reaches "Phase three", then stations and planetary forces on both sides will join in after all the attacker ships.

If attacker ships are defeated, then defender ships will go to "Phase three" against the attacker stations and planetary forces. If this happens, only defender ships vs. attacker stations & planetary forces will fight, while defender facilities will stay safe.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: sargas on January 30, 2014, 04:33:31 PM
sounds good...


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Matamaure001 on January 30, 2014, 06:14:11 PM
Yep


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: raphael on January 31, 2014, 09:05:21 AM
Thanks for clarifying, SirEmi.  :)


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: raphael on March 01, 2014, 02:56:08 AM
Any sort of estimated time you can give us for when these changes might happen? Like idk next month? Spring? Summer? lol

It wouldn't take too long once there's a good idea it usually gets implemented very fast. I'm very satisfied with the new server upgrade we did, and working on the updates now.

SirEmi, it's been over five weeks and still no update? :)


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on March 01, 2014, 02:58:40 AM
Any sort of estimated time you can give us for when these changes might happen? Like idk next month? Spring? Summer? lol

It wouldn't take too long once there's a good idea it usually gets implemented very fast. I'm very satisfied with the new server upgrade we did, and working on the updates now.

SirEmi, it's been over five weeks and still no update? :)

You sound a bit surprised. This doesn't surprise me at all. Look how long we have been waiting on some of the updates we have been promised.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: raphael on March 01, 2014, 03:02:23 AM
That's true. I was just asking him nicely. LOL


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on March 01, 2014, 06:51:06 AM
There's a big update coming soon, that will release the new pledge system with projects in progress details, reward system and estimated time to complete it.

The attack system improvement will be on top of the list. Other top projects are planetary fortress, supernova and mysterious encounters.

Other projects will include alliance voting pools, higher resolution system view, and other good stuff :)

The update will also include a new light office skin that will be the opposite of deep space one and lots of improvements to the interface, menus, module action icons, etc.

I've been working really hard on setting up the new development environment, so hopefully with the release of the pledge and rewards system, we will see regular updates every two weeks or so.
The best thing will be that you'll be able to track each project and see it being developed, suggest and comment on it.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: FreezeLove on March 01, 2014, 10:21:05 PM
Well im looking forward to this pledge system SirEmi, and I already know which projects I will be working towards. Just cant jump up and down yet till its all updated.  :19:


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: JamJulLison on March 02, 2014, 02:36:35 AM
There's a big update coming soon, that will release the new pledge system with projects in progress details, reward system and estimated time to complete it.

The attack system improvement will be on top of the list. Other top projects are planetary fortress, supernova and mysterious encounters.

Other projects will include alliance voting pools, higher resolution system view, and other good stuff :)

The update will also include a new light office skin that will be the opposite of deep space one and lots of improvements to the interface, menus, module action icons, etc.

I've been working really hard on setting up the new development environment, so hopefully with the release of the pledge and rewards system, we will see regular updates every two weeks or so.
The best thing will be that you'll be able to track each project and see it being developed, suggest and comment on it.


I will believe it when I see it.  Look how long we have been waiting on novas.  I seriously have doubts we will see any of this anytime soon.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: Dadds on March 06, 2014, 01:40:19 PM
yeah, i am not getting excited yet about imminent updates....maybe for xmas? Anyway, i am just removing all resources from every system i encounter until some action is called for when everyone runs out of materials lol
My question is though: If the pledge system comes into place, how soon from completed pledge to actual development can you implement it in? It is nothing now for top players to be spending 100's of QP just to speed up time to kick some butt with another player. I suspect if we spend that sort of cash on a pledge, and it still takes months to be developed, beta tested and bug fixed.......it could be an issue.


Title: Re: New look at the combat system
Post by: SirEmi on March 26, 2014, 11:23:38 AM
Combat system revamp project is in progress, expected delivery in 20 days or less  :)

If you don't know how it works yet, please click on "Pledge" in the game, on the left menu and read all about it.

Thank you all for the support.