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Author Topic: We can minimize loss in planetary combat and add strategy.  (Read 18695 times)
SirEmi
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 03:53:36 PM »


2.) 100% means that everything in the cargo holds and fill rates in the mining facilities will be looted, if there is enough cargo space to hold it.


I understood the 100% part - what I didn't understand is what allows the attacker to loot? Does he have to win the battle first?  Even if the attack is successful, I don't think 100% loot should be given - that's extremely rewarding.  To do this, I would almost reverse what you said, where the defenders get a bigger bonus against looting than they do against destruction, because it's easier to destroy than it is to subdue.

It shouldn't be easy to just roam around and take things from mining facilities on the surfaces of planets; there should be some effort involved.

Yes, of course the pirate has to win the battle against the military forces. Then, if the civilian forces are outnumbered, they will surrender and hand over the cargo if they have any, and if the attacking ship has cargo space to hold it...

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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 04:07:19 PM »

...continu,


Repairing modules and such is too much micro-management, and to keep it realistic if the pirate asks for the loot and you give it, he moves on and you don't sustain any damage other then losing the resources. Eliminating destroying of modules wouldn't be too smart, that would make it difficult to claim planets and get rid of unwanted presence.


Implements this option is difficult, of course, I am in no hurry so this is the time it takes.

It can be similar to the repair of armor and / or cost in solars. Or another way, as time ... whatever.

 12 Build a game with a solid foundation takes time and we encourage take this time.


Alright Bomale, I'll be working on this thing and see how it goes with looting and pillaging as most people seem to agree it's better then the destroying that currently is on. Some civilians will be lost so there will be repairing involved in that you will probably have to assign new personnel from time to time if you get raided, but of course the best defense is a good offense so lots of weapons / marines to protects the little miners 1



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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 04:19:15 PM »

atention Little fact:
Whatever way or the way a player can lose a module, if the loss of this module is costing less than buying and installing this module,
then the owner will have to enormously defense to protect its modules.
And anyway, this defense will be easy to destroy/capture with a ship slightest powerful.  (Just thing about gas planet, or tiny planet.)

 21 Capture must be going strategic and not economic. The economy is the pilliage, and the strategy is the capture.
 With the gun power  pistols we go to Ecomic pilliage, after with military/civils AND solars greedy we go in strategy capture.
 This way increase strategy in combat, and viability of the game at long term.

 19 It goes well with this topic, let's not give
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:58:09 PM by Bomale » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 08:08:15 AM »

@Bomale, For an example of a well defended settlement take a look at what outerposse has done at Eta GJ 674... No way ill be messing with that any time soon, even if looting is enabled, that station is packing too much fire power.

ofcourse leaving just a few modules undefended on a planet is asking to have them looted.
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 11:01:16 AM »

Actually,

Bassed on a few recent battles the fortification bonus makes it very unpredictable wether you will actually win even if ship power rating is significantly higher than  defender.

a 5 times fortification bonus if the attacker is trying to destroy you increases defenders chance of winning significantly. Even current 3 times bonus makes it very hard... ( no im not crying here, just stating opinion )

I terms of predictability the battles from ship to station/planet are very unpredictable. if weapons do minor hits you going to loose no matter who you are. If much weaker opponent gets first shot and does a critical or major hit even with a single laser you loose in a ship. unless you are not just 4-5 times as powerfull but are many more factors more powerfull, and full of armour. of course if you did get first shot and do normal damage then your likely to win.

I think you need to actually have done a good number of fights to get a feeling for it. Easy to overlook how unpredictable it is otherwise.


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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 11:36:06 AM »

@Bomale, For an example of a well defended settlement take a look at what outerposse has done at Eta GJ 674... No way ill be messing with that any time soon, even if looting is enabled, that station is packing too much fire power.

ofcourse leaving just a few modules undefended on a planet is asking to have them looted.

 17 Scion, my pirate,


That sound nice,
but without knowing the attack power that does not actually tell me much. How module on the planet 9, 6, 4?
But still, whatever, just have my ship alone has over 150k attack power now. And I can be increase.
 arrow Question now of after you, Is what I could destroy these facilities with my ship?
 arrow Next, if I can not, another player can it?

In 2 cases, the loss for the player to its facilities on the planet is disastrous and repetition will discourage any player.
 Player without having facilities, how you live as a pirate?

We talk to a single case, but with a planet of 1, 4 slots what do we do as a defense, an orbital station!
 Same problem as for the planet, this return to the same, just conveys the stations defenses, the consequences are the same.

I remain of the opinion not to have destruction of modules.
A pirate can he live economically with the looting of modules endommaged?
Capture module is optional and the strategy after the modules were damaged, and then land and military units can attempt to capture a cost elevate one / several modules.

 12 Consider the beginner, they can be doing anything without fear of being constantly losing their facilities.

 21 I would say even more, we should perhaps consider that a planet with an orbital station, could NOT have opportunity to capture,
   it would offer the beginner a solid foundation, knowing that the stations are all the same orbitals limited.
   Only the looting would be available.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 11:45:49 AM by Bomale » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2012, 12:13:06 PM »

...
I terms of predictability the battles from ship to station/planet are very unpredictable. if weapons do minor hits you going to loose no matter who you are. If much weaker opponent gets first shot and does a critical or major hit even with a single laser you loose in a ship. unless you are not just 4-5 times as powerfull but are many more factors more powerfull, and full of armour. of course if you did get first shot and do normal damage then your likely to win.
...
17 Hi

atention Here we talk about climbing power, and there 's never will stop rising, and the gap between beginners and more advanced players will continue to increase.

     Not if it is a promising way for anyone!
     Attacker will ask more power, and defenser ask more defense.


12 And the strategy is not part of the game. Power, more power and a little more power.

     Power is not the solution, it's a means, a tool , I believe.
     I am convinced that no new player can resist against any player between us. Why, because of the difference in power.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 12:31:35 PM by Bomale » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2012, 01:21:07 PM »

Yes, as someone who hasnt cashed in lots of QP to buy a bigger ship, or to fit it out. I am well aware that i am not now, or ever, am i likely to be the big fish, thats ok, small fish can have sharp teeth too.

Any new player willing to spash some cash around will easily be able to build a fleet larger and stronger that what most of the players that are building facilities are capable of defending against even after weeks or months of game play. This is just a fact of life when playing games like this that need to offer power-ups for real world cash to finance their development and ongoing operation.

Is there anything to stop someone joining the game and griefing by just destroying everything... no not really. Even if they cant destroy stuff and just 'capture' it the same problem exists, a more powerfull player can simply move in and take everything from a newer or less powerfull player. So to 'protect' the less powerfull you would need to ban both destroy and capture options.

But if you remove the ability to destroy/capture modules then the game is radically different. Instead of slowly expanding a well defended set of places, you will see people in a mad scramble to put something down on every valuable spot they can find as fast as they can buy/build modules and get them out somewhere. since no one can do anything about it once you have a module there. The game becomes a simple race to reserve as much teritory as possible.

My thoughts about adding an option to loot is that it is potentially more lucrative in the long run for BOTH sides. the pirate can generate an income and get at resources that he might not otherwise be able too although at significant risk to his ships integrity. The miner is less likely to have their whole facilites wipped out, and only need to keep unloading it and resupplying the defenders to generate reasonable profits.

I reckon you should have a go at attacking a few planets with that big beastly ship you have... find out how it really is for yourself ;) Sure you can clean the boards on most of the smaller operations, but id bet a few of the better defended places would give you a run for your money.





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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 03:44:58 PM »

Yes, as someone who hasnt cashed in lots of QP to buy a bigger ship, or to fit it out. I am well aware that i am not now, or ever, am i likely to be the big fish, thats ok, small fish can have sharp teeth too.
   Well, and this will be the case for many new players.
    For other, invest in a large and powerful ship without invest in research/mining , they will come pirate.

Any new player willing to spash some cash around will easily be able to build a fleet larger and stronger that what most of the players that are building facilities are capable of defending against even after weeks or months of game play. This is just a fact of life when playing games like this that need to offer power-ups for real world cash to finance their development and ongoing operation.
   As you say "Any new player willing to spash some cash.."
    and it is still the case that VERY FEW new player, and even that is insufficient in many cases.

Is there anything to stop someone joining the game and griefing by just destroying everything... no not really.
Even if they cant destroy stuff and just 'capture' it the same problem exists, a more powerfull player can simply move in and take everything from a newer or less powerfull player. So to 'protect' the less powerfull you would need to ban both destroy and capture options.
   Nobody likes to destroy his accomplishments, especially unnecessarily.
     If we take the fact that it costs MORE to capture a module's than purchase it at Sol, then the capture come strategigue.
     So NO reason for a player so powerful it to capture a module that costs MORE than purchase it at Sol,
     except if it is for reasons of strategic positioning, and/or for a rare/expensive resources, and/or other reasons.

But if you remove the ability to destroy/capture modules then the game is radically different. Instead of slowly expanding a well defended set of places, you will see people in a mad scramble to put something down on every valuable spot they can find as fast as they can buy/build modules and get them out somewhere. since no one can do anything about it once you have a module there. The game becomes a simple race to reserve as much teritory as possible.
   I have at no time mentions removing the capture since it does not currently exist,
    I submit that I was removing the module destruction and replace it by module DAMAGED (or any other named), so,
    the efficiency is lower may well be pillar, and making it capturable if the need is required by the attacker.

    The limit the number of ship, what they cost, the gas planets ( not defenses unit on ground ),
      small planets (no space for defenses) that the protection of a territory a real jigsaw head,
      and remember that the system undergoes transformation due to the exhaustion of resources.
    Then not so obvious to protect a terriroire constantly evolutions.
    Otherwise, let us all pirates, like this one have nothing to lose.

My thoughts about adding an option to loot is that it is potentially more lucrative in the long run for BOTH sides.
the pirate can generate an income and get at resources that he might not otherwise be able too although at significant risk to his ships integrity. The miner is less likely to have their whole facilites wipped out, and only need to keep unloading it and resupplying the defenders to generate reasonable profits.
I reckon you should have a go at attacking a few planets with that big beastly ship you have... find out how it really is for yourself ;) Sure you can clean the boards on most of the smaller operations, but id bet a few of the better defended places would give you a run for your money.
    sniper Give me the coordinates where you lodge your modules with your strongest defenses and I'm trying to test destruction.
   If it helps, I am very far from system 'SOL', then you will emplement time to structure a defense, and even done any tests to protect your entire system,
   just because a planet for mining, you limit your growth.
          laugh I'm so far from 'Sol', then, when developers make change in game for 'Sol', I see it only next day.  laugh
   Do you have some modules on planets? Yes, then would you want to see your modules destroyed ? No, I am certain.


 12 Anyway that replacing destroyed by damaged modules not CHANGE anything to the game now.
     frusty Except for the developpers
    If we want the strategy, it is not the power that will make the game strategic, but the CHOICE.
    Otherwise, we're talking for nothing. Do you agree?

                                                suck_kr (Soupir... ) A very big work for me to write all this.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:05:48 AM by Bomale » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2012, 04:32:56 PM »

Let me add this for you my space pirate  nunu,

As already mentioned, the potential is enormous with the fact of destruction did not have modules.

Here is another option that you love I'm sure.
 21 Suppose that tomorrow, our developers up in some of the worlds independent systems,
       with forces and means of defenses varies. What pleasure you get from the pillars.
        wallbash Option to capture maybe will not exist in this independent world because, they will always rebellions for independence.
       Like the idea that you like me?

       Other ideas can be born again in this world.
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2012, 04:51:15 AM »

   I have at no time mentions removing the capture since it does not currently exist,

Um, yeah it does.

Advanced Cargo Bay Mk III scooped into cargo bay.
Science Lab Mk V was captured by the attacker.


   I submit that I was removing the module destruction and replace it by module DAMAGED (or any other named), so,
    the efficiency is lower may well be pillar, and making it capturable if the need is required by the attacker.

I guess i just dont see the difference. For a newish player, between someone coming in and destroying the modules, and someone coming in and attacking, damaging, then capturing them. The new player still has no modules at the end of it. There is NO difference for them.

But like i said right at the start, I think most of the idea is great, adding an option to be able to attack and loot a planet/station without actually being forced to destroy the modules is a good idea.

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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 05:46:08 AM »

 17 Hi,

      You mention that we have already the option to capture module.
     confused I have not seen this option at least when I started the game
     Does just being introduced?
     Yes,  arrow so where is this option?
     No, this is NOT an option then this is only the actual result of the attack.

     If we take the fact that it costs MORE to capture a module than purchase it at Sol, then the capture come strategigue.
     So NO reason for a player so powerful it to capture a module that costs MORE than purchase it at Sol,
     except if it is for reasons of strategic positioning, and/or for a rare/expensive resources, and/or other reasons.

     So for the new player, it will be very different with what is happening at the moment. Player lost all time module.

      Opps You make me work hard friend,
     I know that my English is not easy to understand, yet I try to say that all this would have the benefit of all players.

      12 Anyway it's ok, we will eventually get out.
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2012, 05:51:22 AM »

@Emi,

Any update on when/if this might be introduced?

Hate to admit it, but I feel a little bit guilty about raising someones settlement to the ground if this change is in the pipeworks and just around the corner.... Ofcourse if its been scrapped or is unlikely to make it 'Live' anytime soon then i can carry on with a clean concience.
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2012, 07:06:03 AM »

How can you say capturing a module cost more than buying it in sol?
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 11:19:13 AM »

 17 Hi,

 laugh In reality it costs very expensive to repair what is damaged severely. Often better to buy new than to repair.
  
   That said, here we are talking about a game
   If we keep on doing what has been said opportunity to refresh, nothing is more frustrating than losing what has been built.

   With this in mind, and if you want to capture as well as a strategic objective
     must remain the capture module has to be more expensive than buying the system 'SOL'.

12 Here a suggestion :
     The first cost of the capture is that in this game, it does not have the right to capture a module without defray the cost of it has its legitimate owner.
     For this, we respect the work of the player who loses his module.
      Remember that someone who has lost this module make the displacements(time) and lost civil/military.
      It is essential to get into the skin of someone who has lost his module to understand the reason for the cost.

   The second cost is the repair of the module.

   So what is going to capture a strategic action is the cost of capture module.
 
         19 And so's me, it could be the cost DOUBLE to capture a module and I would agree.
           Capture a MIF resources to have diamond, gold, uranium or any others rare resources, I have no problems with that.
           Better to paid this cost, instead to do all work to install one MIF myself.
           For other MIF, I will keep dammaged and loot these modules without capturing it.

   Hope this will help,
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