[IMG]

[Dadds]

Before this all gets out of hand on who shot who lets nip this thread in the butt. I dont have a personal vendetta against you JanJul or [PMI] in general. My beef is with another so far un-named corp who systematically came into my first system and tore  it to pieces. not 1 pilot, but 3 or 4 of their squad when i was a newly graduated solarian. Thats for another story and day.
You are just the unfortunate who popped his head up and issued a KoS on a pilot under corp protection. Personally i dont like your way of gamestyle cause it can upset the gaming of others, but i accept there are all sorts of personalities and traits when you play a game that involves other players.

Destruction of stations like that is an act of subjugation clear and simple, its certainly not piracy. You can hardly expect that people will not seek retribution. Unfortunately for the game though most newbies just throw in the towel after a few hits like that.

As so eloquently pointed out by Scion, destruction of a space station because a player was trying to defend a territory is not piracy, it is akin to terrorism. There is always going to be someone bigger and better and more powerful than others in the game who can destroy bases at will. Does that make it right or justifiable?  That just paints  a big red target on your back.
There is no doubt that i wouldnt have scrambled to form a position and corp from the deeds of others and so readily attracted like-minded and like-treated individuals so for that i thank all the raiders out there. One day there will be a pay back event in true Karma tradition. Until that day comes, my little pack of furry marsupials will shelter and grow in the shadow of the dinosaurs
Dadds, Corporate Leader [IMG]
"What doesnt kill you makes you stronger"  ^{Frederich Nietzsche}

[sargas]

As I understand it, your pilot declared war before he was under your protection (as was the KoS).  The war status he started cannot be rescinded just because of membership in a club.  Since he declared war as an independent player, only he can rescind it (and it should not involve anyone but him and the corp he declared war upon).

[JamJulLison]

As I understand it, your pilot declared war before he was under your protection (as was the KoS).  The war status he started cannot be rescinded just because of membership in a club.  Since he declared war as an independent player, only he can rescind it (and it should not involve anyone but him and the corp he declared war upon).

Sargas is quite correct. That said I haven't told my members to go after him despite it. I have left it up to them. I am just operating on a KOS myself with him.  The reason I posted letting you know what was going on with him was because you and your Corp have the right to know about this situation.  If it is ever to be resolved, not only would he have to take back his declaration, but he would also need to issue me an apology for how rude he was with me.  Yes he had every right to be mad at me. He had every right to come after me. But he had no right to use that kind of language with me.  When your angry at someone online, it is best to take the time to calm down a bit rather then flying off the handle cussing someone out.  I am sure you wouldn't like it if I did it to you.

On the subject of the Corp that tore apart your stuff. I think I know which one that is. It's a pirating corp correct? That particular corp tends to destroy more then loot.  While I can be a nuisance, asides from what I do to stations, I tend to most of the time just settle with looting the mines occasionally and not destroying or capturing them.  I don't differentiate between new players and old when I do this. The more experienced players know the risk mining in 0,0.  The newer ones I hope can learn to defend their mines better or learn move further out. Either option can work well for them. It is best if it is a combination of both. If someone can't, then they usually end up becoming a farm. If not for me then for someone else. The galaxy is a tough place. Especially in 0,0. Old player must come back to the area to do things. New players start off there and are eager to try what they have learned. Some become pirates. Some of them are just straight out buttholes about it.  The combination of so much in that small sector of space tends to make it a lot more dangerous then the rest of the galaxy. That is why it is a good idea to not mine in that area and why it is a good idea to not leave your ship in orbit of a planet/moon when you go offline.  Something you will discover about me if you actually ever take the time to get to know me better is that while I am an aggressive player, I am also a really nice guy.

[Dadds]

In keeping ontopic with this thread, i will restate our stance

A guild dedicated to mining & self-sufficiency in deep space with mutual defence of its realms and members. A non-aggressive corps, we will defend our territories and allies fiercely. It will be a long, slow haul, but rewarding to see the fruits of our labours
Dadds (#862) is Corporate leader. PM him for any inter corps dialog including NAP's and boundaries.

We have zero tolerance to piracy since all our members have been victims of piracy at some time or other and as such those groups are outside of the corp non-aggressive stance.
Whether or not one of my members in the past has upset someone previously and uttered war chants, justifiably or not is irrelavent. As with all organisations, such as a church, all refugees are offered sanctuary under our umbrella. That sanctuary extends to full physical protection from marauders. i cannot be a proper leader and say, " oh well if you said something bad then you deserve it" and turn a blind eye when individuals target one of my members outside of the role-play they have chosen.  
Any and all hostilites will be dealt with with clinical and exacting force.

Dadds, Commander-in-Chief, [Independent Miners Guild]

[WolfDoc]

In keeping ontopic with this thread, i will restate our stance

A guild dedicated to mining & self-sufficiency in deep space with mutual defence of its realms and members. A non-aggressive corps, we will defend our territories and allies fiercely. It will be a long, slow haul, but rewarding to see the fruits of our labours
Dadds (#862) is Corporate leader. PM him for any inter corps dialog including NAP's and boundaries.

We have zero tolerance to piracy since all our members have been victims of piracy at some time or other and as such those groups are outside of the corp non-aggressive stance.
Whether or not one of my members in the past has upset someone previously and uttered war chants, justifiably or not is irrelavent. As with all organisations, such as a church, all refugees are offered sanctuary under our umbrella. That sanctuary extends to full physical protection from marauders. i cannot be a proper leader and say, " oh well if you said something bad then you deserve it" and turn a blind eye when individuals target one of my members outside of the role-play they have chosen.  
Any and all hostilites will be dealt with with clinical and exacting force.

Dadds, Commander-in-Chief, [Independent Miners Guild]

So by this message i understanding that you will attack any pirating corp?, But bc ur attacking pirates for profits its ok? Which ur second in command told me just today he did to one of my members, but What i also dont get is the last part..."role play they have chosen" this whole disagreement is over one of ur members, Not at the time thou, saying he was going to destroy one of my corp leaders, and our corp. He decided this was his role..So like a normal person JJL tried to talk to him at which point he dug the hole of being attacked on sight from us, Now if he would simply say hey, i got a corp and the past is the past im sure we can work it out, But instead we have u Dadd jumping in and telling us that its over, when its not till both sides are happy or at least in agreement. I been a way for a little while and only playing from my phone but im back in full force, and im not exactly the kind of guy who sits ideally by while one corp tries to tell my corp, Who is x6 bigger then u, tell us what needs to happen..Aka that we need to leave Razgr1l alone..

Now i want to work this out, simply for the fact that is not good to drive active corps from the game..But any more of this

("exactly! most are more powerful than you. I would be very nervous in that top 20 position with 2 of my pilots there with you. We are a very active team that are working well together in support of each other.
Perhaps you need to be considering that partition to us for an unconditional NAP before my dogs sniff you out! 21 <MSG ENDS>")

and friendly conversations end and ull see what all our ships look like powered up,  U said this

""There is always going to be someone bigger and better and more powerful than others in the game who can destroy bases at will.""

there only 2 maybe 3 more powerful then me and 2 of them are in my corp..
 having a few top 20 captains isnt a biggie, but having 4 top ten captains, and 6 if everyone powered up is, i know u got a guy who donates but remember i donate just as much as any player..most combined..  But i like u me and JJL to sit down and talk about all this and work out a healthy conclusion, no more of this back and forth, whos got the biggest balls crap..

[Dadds]

start a new thread. this isnt the place for this discussion. power up if you wish <shrug> coming into this thread and puffing out your chest doesnt impress me in the slightest. As you say, enough to and fro-ing with who did what first to whom...i merely pointed out our stance and roll/game play. your member wants to make a personal issue from it.
 i was the first to suggest you should be talking to me about a NAP. Now you want to talk after an incident in sol. So be it, set a time.

Dadds [IMG]

[WolfDoc]

well u miss understood, there will be no NAP. PMI doesn't do that. if we did we would of with NHC when both groups thought it might be beneficial..The talk will just be to ease tension

[Dadds]

We are not tense at all. just goin about our business as usual, mining our systems, building equipment, smacking the occasional pirate. Things are all on track here. Not sure meeting with you in some remote system and risk an ambush or escallation of "tensions" is in our best interests at this time. Not to mention the time and cost to come and meet you. Perhaps you need to take this conversation to a PM and explain to me exactly what you hope to achieve with this meeting. So much fuss over a Corporation Stance, sheesh!

[sargas]

I know we are a long way 'West of the Pecos' out here, but what [IMG] is promoting is vigilante justice.

(A vigilante  is an individual or group who undertakes law enforcement without legal authority.
Vigilante justice is extrajudicial punishment  that is motivated by the nonexistence of law and order or dissatisfaction with justice.  Lynching and gunfighing have always been considered forms of vigilante  justice.)

 Once in a while the true criminal is punished, but there have been too many instances of the innocent being harmed.  In most cases the vigilante is more of a criminal than the victim of a perceived offense.

Any meetings regarding the hostilities between our two corporations need to be both public and open.

And as far as "Not sure meeting with you in some remote system and risk an ambush or escallation of "tensions" is in our best interests at this time" is concerned, I have discovered that those who will not trust cannot be trusted.



(edit for the usual reason - spelling)

[Dadds]

(A vigilante  is an individual or group who undertakes law enforcement without legal authority.
Vigilante justice is extrajudicial punishment  that is motivated by the nonexistence of law and order or dissatisfaction with justice.  Lynching and gunfighing have always been considered forms of vigilante  justice.)

Thanks for the definition of 'vigilante' most likely pulled out of wiki. I am sure we are all feeling more educated from the information. Not sure why it is posted in this thread since its relavance is tenuous at best.

I know we are a long way 'West of the Pecos' out here, but what [IMG] is promoting is vigilante justice.

I will make 2 points to this opinion.
1. There is no law out here to begin with, other than at Earth. "Taking the law into our own hands" , or vigilante as defined in the quote, is our only option to defend and survive against pirate raids. Where is the "legal authority"? Who else do you turn to if not yourself and your allies?
2. We are not promoting any such vigilantiism. You guys are doing a great job at that yourselves. Heck you have managed to push us out to the limits away from sol and banded us together. Keep up the good work!

We are miners who wont be treated like cattle or farms for the lazy and greedy. you want cash, go dig it out at a meter an hour like the rest of the workers. or run comm/sos missions. It working for us

Once in a while the true criminal is punished, but there have been too many instances of the innocent being harmed.  In most cases the vigilante is more of a criminal than the victim of a perceived offense.

You guys seriously believe you are the innocent bystanders in space? the oppressed and wrongly accused and sadly misunderstood? O.M.G. I shouldnt be too surprised with that though, its the usual response to someone who has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. There are no nice pirates and thieves and cutthroats out there. Sure maybe one day we will catch up for a beer, but i wouldnt be leaving my wallet on that bar when i visit the bathroom lol

Any meetings regarding the hostilities between our two corporations need to be both public and open.

You want to invite the public to air our dirty laundry? lol go ahead that could work. Then you would have yourself a lynching party. Save us the trouble of disarming you.


I wont be replying to this thread any longer since i have made my point many times over. My second in command will be able to answer any further enquiries on our stance should he feel the need. Your boss knows where to contact me. All this chipping away with other people's input isnt helping resolve anything.
I have a corporation to run.

Dadds <....Transmission terminated >

[JamJulLison]

You guys seriously believe you are the innocent bystanders in space? the oppressed and wrongly accused and sadly misunderstood? O.M.G. I shouldnt be too surprised with that though, its the usual response to someone who has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. There are no nice pirates and thieves and cutthroats out there. Sure maybe one day we will catch up for a beer, but i wouldnt be leaving my wallet on that bar when i visit the bathroom lol

No nice pirates? I'm sorry but that is where you are wrong. I am actually a really nice guy. I pirate mostly to help bring me in extra income. I also hope by raiding in the 0,0 area that I can teach players. new and experienced, that it is not a smart idea to mine in 0,0. The game needs good players. Some people won't become good players unless you give them that push they need. It is as simple as that. That said it does take some intelligence to be a good player as well.

I am going to keep this simple. Right now we are taking a vote. But I would like to offer you a deal.  An understanding that you would be smart to take.  It is the same understanding we have with NHC.  Attacks for profits are permitted. But revenge attacks are allowed by the person being pirated if they wish to against the person who raided them. If one of our people attack you and you can't be sure it was for profit or you can tell it wasn't, some revenge attacks are permitted against the person who did it. If one person alone isn't enough for a single revenge attack, another player is allowed to help out.  Afterwards things are even and we just go on our merry way. I also want an apology from Razgr1z for cussing me out.  If Razgr1z had destroyed one of my stations or some of mines I certainly wouldn't have done that to him.

War is never beneficial to either side. In a situation like this, it would be really bad for your entire corp. Mines wouldn't be looted. They would be destroyed and captured. Space Stations that are found would be destroyed. Ships would be attacked at every opportunity. We wouldn't stick to just one area of space either. We would hunt down every thing we could. Don't think our people don't have the resources to do just that. To some fuel might be a bit of an issue. But to most of them, it won't really be a hindrance. So think of not just yourself on this one but your entire Corp.

[Aysle]

Well, as I stated before the stance of our alliance is simple. We are miners by trade but more then capable of defending ourselves.

We don't hunt pirates, but if we come across a pirate in our travels we are free to take the opportunity for some extra profit. Just as I did recently with Capt Bob (he was kind enough to leave behind a Adv Miner Mk IX for me). We leave all non-pirating alliances alone.

We will continue on with this. These are the rules in our alliance and we aren't going to change them just because some pirates dictate it isn't ok to attack a pirate. Seems you guys want the cake and to eat it to. You can't be a pirate and not expect others to eventually attack you in the fashion that you live by.

[JamJulLison]

I never said in the agreement you couldn't attack us.  Hits that are clearly for profit are of course fine.  Any ones that seem not to be for profit we could have course get a revenge attack in on.

I question your attack on Bob as being for profit. Granted he had a MK 9 mine there. But basic mines aren't that great to begin with. I can't see it being worth the QP used to speed up the attack. An advance mine I might understand though. Also Bob is actually one of our most peaceful members. He keeps to himself.  From what I am gathering from you guys though is profit or not, you guys are going to try to attack us on sight if you see you can win the battle.  In general, if a place is outside of 0,0 I won't attempt to destroy a station just cause I can if I am outside of 0,0. Even in 0,0 it just depends on if the stations have defenses and the power of the station. Under 40k I will go for. More powerful ones I tend to leave alone. Not that I can't destroy them, I could with my more powerful ships. I just think it would be too inefficient to do that. Why do you think I didn't go after Tumppi's station on Jupiter? 

The deal I have offered you more then fair. Especially after the actions of Razgr1z. This deal would mean I don't go after Razgr1z on sight either despite his actions prior to joining IMG. As I have said before, he had the right to be mad at me. He didn't have the right to threaten our entire Corp. I could have ordered my Corp to just go after him on sight. But I didn't. I could have also hunted down every thing he has. But I didn't. I would have had every right to after his declaration and with how he cussed me out. The reason i want an apology from him as part of this agreement is because that while he had every right to be mad at me, he shouldn't have cussed me out either or declared war on the entire Corp.

[Dadds]

In all this bother with politics and whining, I missed some very important dates to celebrate...yesterday was my 1 month anniversary playing this game! Happy monthday to me!
Another important date, [IMG] was formed out of a need to school for protection like the small pilchards we are, just one week ago!    

Now with the celebrations complete, here is the list of OUR conditions, which really arent conditions, since they are unconditional!! (gosh i love that line!)
[PMI] or its members will unconditionally withdraw any KoS on any of our members
Further, JamJulLison will pay [IMG] financial compense for acts of terrorism and loss of earnings, including wasting my time in forums instead of gaming, to the value of $20M solars. This money to be delivered to Razgr1z in Earth's orbit, with a personal apology delivered for unnecessarily rough conduct to a new graduate and for gross unsportsman-like conduct (Mr Nice Guy)
[PMI] or any of its affiliates will not at any time attack a position under the protection of [IMG] unless its prepared for the retaliation that will ensue.
Now, have i left anything out? Oh, whats that you say? what are we giving you in return? Sure, fair is fair and there should be some give and take. We promise not to send you all bankrupt in a futile attempt to find us and embarassment with the bottom slapping we will deliver along the way. Now do i have everyones attention?
Failure to comply i hear someone ask? Well, that i am afraid, is classified TOP SECRET operational procedures.You will be issued a public statement in due course should you choose not to comply. As WolfDoc advises to me, i am not here to get into some sort of machismo contest on how well hung we are and flashing our tackle from under our kilts to intimidate you all just yet
So now its time to truly listen :-
Dont ever post on a corporations stance how we should or should not conduct that stance. That is sheer arrogance with a massive show of ignorance (where is sargas with the definition of ignorance...i know what it means and using it in context)
Dont ever post a veiled threat to us, to intimidate or bully us into playing to your desires.
Dont question me or my pilots motives ever again. They are motivated in their actions by the rule of conduct we have agreed upon by being a member of this corps.
Most of all, when i say i am finished responding and explaining a stance to the slow of learning and the selective deaf, DONT DRAG ME BACK IN TO THE DISCUSSION!
The line in the sand is drawn

No nice pirates? I'm sorry but that is where you are wrong. I am actually a really nice guy. I pirate mostly to help bring me in extra income. I also hope by raiding in the 0,0 area that I can teach players. new and experienced, that it is not a smart idea to mine in 0,0. The game needs good players. Some people won't become good players unless you give them that push they need. It is as simple as that. That said it does take some intelligence to be a good player as well.

P.S. That is good advice, not to mine at 0,0. Pity your preachings are reaching us and not your squad mates. It was unfortunate that it was Bob who was hit, but my colleagues were only following up on your good advice and teachings, JamJul. It was a profitable strike. Why did he hurry with QP? Gee let me think, in pirate territory with 1 ship and having an opportunity to strike down a loan pirate or....wait for the hours long countdown and the possibility of reinforcements arriving to mess the attack up, or to scoop up the mats, etc etc. It was a good tactical move to do as he did. I would have considered similar moves, if i was presented with the same scenario

Dadds, Commander-in-Chief [IMG]

[WolfDoc]

In all this bother with politics and whining, I missed some very important dates to celebrate...yesterday was my 1 month anniversary playing this game! Happy monthday to me!
Another important date, [IMG] was formed out of a need to school for protection like the small pilchards we are, just one week ago!    

Now with the celebrations complete, here is the list of OUR conditions, which really arent conditions, since they are unconditional!! (gosh i love that line!)
[PMI] or its members will unconditionally withdraw any KoS on any of our members
Further, JamJulLison will pay [IMG] financial compense for acts of terrorism and loss of earnings, including wasting my time in forums instead of gaming, to the value of $20M solars. This money to be delivered to Razgr1z in Earth's orbit, with a personal apology delivered for unnecessarily rough conduct to a new graduate and for gross unsportsman-like conduct (Mr Nice Guy)
[PMI] or any of its affiliates will not at any time attack a position under the protection of [IMG] unless its prepared for the retaliation that will ensue.
Now, have i left anything out? Oh, whats that you say? what are we giving you in return? Sure, fair is fair and there should be some give and take. We promise not to send you all bankrupt in a futile attempt to find us and embarassment with the bottom slapping we will deliver along the way. Now do i have everyones attention?
Failure to comply i hear someone ask? Well, that i am afraid, is classified TOP SECRET operational procedures.You will be issued a public statement in due course should you choose not to comply. As WolfDoc advises to me, i am not here to get into some sort of machismo contest on how well hung we are and flashing our tackle from under our kilts to intimidate you all just yet
So now its time to truly listen :-
Dont ever post on a corporations stance how we should or should not conduct that stance. That is sheer arrogance with a massive show of ignorance (where is sargas with the definition of ignorance...i know what it means and using it in context)
Dont ever post a veiled threat to us, to intimidate or bully us into playing to your desires.
Dont question me or my pilots motives ever again. They are motivated in their actions by the rule of conduct we have agreed upon by being a member of this corps.
Most of all, when i say i am finished responding and explaining a stance to the slow of learning and the selective deaf, DONT DRAG ME BACK IN TO THE DISCUSSION!
The line in the sand is drawn

No nice pirates? I'm sorry but that is where you are wrong. I am actually a really nice guy. I pirate mostly to help bring me in extra income. I also hope by raiding in the 0,0 area that I can teach players. new and experienced, that it is not a smart idea to mine in 0,0. The game needs good players. Some people won't become good players unless you give them that push they need. It is as simple as that. That said it does take some intelligence to be a good player as well.

P.S. That is good advice, not to mine at 0,0. Pity your preachings are reaching us and not your squad mates. It was unfortunate that it was Bob who was hit, but my colleagues were only following up on your good advice and teachings, JamJul. It was a profitable strike. Why did he hurry with QP? Gee let me think, in pirate territory with 1 ship and having an opportunity to strike down a loan pirate or....wait for the hours long countdown and the possibility of reinforcements arriving to mess the attack up, or to scoop up the mats, etc etc. It was a good tactical move to do as he did. I would have considered similar moves, if i was presented with the same scenario

Dadds, Commander-in-Chief [IMG]

good luck with those conditions...