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Author Topic: Ships / Carriers / Docking  (Read 8463 times)
SirEmi
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2013, 09:48:35 PM »

nice idea, but i found a problem :

Let's say i put ship A inside ship B, then put ship B inside ship C, and finally put ship C inside ship D
Ship D would only need enough cargo for ship C which carry 2 other ships
This can be exploited.....

I'm using this table for calculating the hull, will basically be # of modules * 25

Speed(km/s) Dodge                     Hull Size M3
10        50%      Shuttle         II       4   * 25
9         45%      Frigate         III      8
8         40%      HeavyFrigate    IV       13
7         35%      Cruiser         V        20
6         30%      BattleCruiser   VI       26
5         25%      HeavyCruiser    VII      38
4         20%      LineShip        VIII     47
3         15%      BattleShip      IX       58
2         10%      Dreadnought     X        70
1          5%      Leviathan       XI       87
.25        0%      Titan           XII      100 * 25


So then we have a Titan at 2500 m3 volume just the hull. Then if this Titan also contains let's see maybe a battleship then it will be 58*25 = 1450 m3 also. So basically you'll need the hull size + any cargo the ship is carrying, that includes Fuel Cells, resources, ships, modules and what not.

So that Titan filled with cargo and other ships and it's cargo and their cargo docked will occupy a lot of space, you won't be able to squeeze it just anywhere, you'll need that space available in the cargo bay for it to dock.

Also, a docked ship will be unavailable and can not be activated, marked as docked in Ships list until undocked. The cargo of the docked ship and other ships docked to it will be frozen until the ship undocks. The docked ship will basically be like a big chunk of cargo, like a big box full of stuff that you can't open until you get it out of the cargo bay... something like that  laugh

Now if you have box A holding box B holding box C holding box D. Then you need to open box A, get box B out, open B, get C, open C, get D ok about there. And box D weights 100 tons, C 50 tons, B 30 tons and A 10 tons. Then A will weight 100+50+30+10, 190 tons.




« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 09:56:41 PM by SirEmi » Report to moderator   Logged

JamJulLison
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2013, 10:02:17 PM »

nice idea, but i found a problem :

Let's say i put ship A inside ship B, then put ship B inside ship C, and finally put ship C inside ship D
Ship D would only need enough cargo for ship C which carry 2 other ships
This can be exploited.....

I am guessing there is going to be a separate carrier ship hull upgrade a ship will need to have to do this. So unless you do that with every ship, I don't think this will be a problem.
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SirEmi
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2013, 11:13:18 PM »

nice idea, but i found a problem :

Let's say i put ship A inside ship B, then put ship B inside ship C, and finally put ship C inside ship D
Ship D would only need enough cargo for ship C which carry 2 other ships
This can be exploited.....

I am guessing there is going to be a separate carrier ship hull upgrade a ship will need to have to do this. So unless you do that with every ship, I don't think this will be a problem.

http://forum.astro-galaxy.com/index.php/topic,8275.msg67053.html#msg67053

Added this in ship optimizations project a few days ago:

        -> Mother ship
              +75% cargo, -25% navigation time. Leviathan, x40 cost
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 08:41:31 AM »

The economy is slightly off topic here but i guess it does have an extension to docking, trading etc. Instead of turning off trading sales at sol, which would make things even harder for a new player to get a foothold as JamJul points out, consider a "tick" accumulation of products based on their relative rarity/value. In this way products continue to be available or produced automatically over time and accumulate at sol trading centres. Sure big players with cash can come in to clean out the stores, but a lot of "big Players" tend to be a long way away from Sol and not always bothered with its trading sales. Of course any goods coming into Sol to be sold on the commodities market should be immediately added to sol reserves and available for purchase by other pilots. Being able to control the price or resell from individual stations would also be advantageous, but limit it to say +-15% of sol prices for the resell. This concept would really help build economy and supply/demand. Naturally, you will still need to be able to defend your stations from pirate raids where you were advertising goods for sale.
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 09:07:26 AM »

The economy is slightly off topic here but i guess it does have an extension to docking, trading etc. Instead of turning off trading sales at sol, which would make things even harder for a new player to get a foothold as JamJul points out, consider a "tick" accumulation of products based on their relative rarity/value. In this way products continue to be available or produced automatically over time and accumulate at sol trading centres. Sure big players with cash can come in to clean out the stores, but a lot of "big Players" tend to be a long way away from Sol and not always bothered with its trading sales. Of course any goods coming into Sol to be sold on the commodities market should be immediately added to sol reserves and available for purchase by other pilots. Being able to control the price or resell from individual stations would also be advantageous, but limit it to say +-15% of sol prices for the resell. This concept would really help build economy and supply/demand. Naturally, you will still need to be able to defend your stations from pirate raids where you were advertising goods for sale.

This is a really good idea.  It would also give people more reasons to mine. By mining and selling resources, people can help the economy. I see big players only cleaning out the resources there if they are building a new ship or making a huge upgrade.
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2013, 06:03:26 AM »

The economy is slightly off topic here but i guess it does have an extension to docking, trading etc. Instead of turning off trading sales at sol, which would make things even harder for a new player to get a foothold as JamJul points out, consider a "tick" accumulation of products based on their relative rarity/value. In this way products continue to be available or produced automatically over time and accumulate at sol trading centres. Sure big players with cash can come in to clean out the stores, but a lot of "big Players" tend to be a long way away from Sol and not always bothered with its trading sales. Of course any goods coming into Sol to be sold on the commodities market should be immediately added to sol reserves and available for purchase by other pilots. Being able to control the price or resell from individual stations would also be advantageous, but limit it to say +-15% of sol prices for the resell. This concept would really help build economy and supply/demand. Naturally, you will still need to be able to defend your stations from pirate raids where you were advertising goods for sale.

This is a really good idea.  It would also give people more reasons to mine. By mining and selling resources, people can help the economy. I see big players only cleaning out the resources there if they are building a new ship or making a huge upgrade.

While were off topic and on the subject of the economy....

One of the issues with the ingame economy is that there are no long supply chains, either in the generation of cash or for collection of resources. For example you do com missions, get paid, and spend the money at Earth buying the resources to upgrade your modules. Those players that like to mine (poor buggers) go mine, sell unwanted minerals at Earth, get paid, then buy additional resources to upgrade their modules. There is no link between those mining and those doing the significantly more profitable com missions. This needs to be rectified.

The reason for the price cap on trading at player owned stations is to stop players transfering wealth from one player to another... ie to block farming. But ever since looting was introduced and especially since station cargo hold looting there were 'lossy' ways around that. With the introduction of the Corp ships there is now a 'lossless' way to transfer wealth from one char to another. So the whole reason for fixed pricing disapears.... but even if fixed pricing was removed, there is still an effective price cap in place because of the infinite availability of resources at Earth.

If the trading hub at earth was removed, so that players couldnt just buy any quantity of resources they wanted but had to buy resources from other players. then the price would be solely determined by supply and demand. This would also balance out the income disparity between com missions and mining, if too many people are doing missions, then the prices of minerals rise making mining more attractive... if there are too many mining then the prices drop. More importantly the cash injected into the game economy via the Com mission payouts is spread across the player base.

There is ofcourse the problem of newbies.... where will they get stuff to build modules? The solution make SOL corp a real CORP. Newbies start as members and the trading hub at earth could be set to corp only. It could be made so that it allways has a supply of the resources needed for tech 1 modules... or even simpler just sells all the tech 1 mark 1 modules.

I guess the trading hub at earth could be set up so that it allways purchases resources (perhapes at a fixed price) so that if no-one is interested currently in buying selenium and you have a big load of selenium in your cargo hold you can still sell it to earth.... this would effectively set a minimum price for the goods, but sets no maximum. The other advantage is that it will even out the growth rate of the players, if modules can only be upgraded using resources that some player had to mine, then there is a finite amout of module mark levels that can be built. It means that players dont grow exponentially rather much more linearly bassed on how much mining is being done.

Unfortunately fixing this now would be problematic, it would freeze the power disparities between players, making it nigh on impossible for lower powered players to ever catch up. Rather it would probably have to be associated with a full reset.... or a relauch in a different shard. But doing so would be a dramatic improvement to the balance of the game.





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JamJulLison
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2013, 06:25:04 AM »

First let me say, welcome back to the game.   

Second your right something like this couldn't be done effectively without either resetting or starting a 2nd server. I think a 2nd server would be the best option and keep trade like it is now on the 1st.  There are people who would be really frustrated and get mad if they had to start all over again and lose everything.  I myself would play on both servers.
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2013, 08:27:03 AM »

First let me say, welcome back to the game.   
...
I myself would play on both servers.

ditto

There is no link between those mining and those doing the significantly more profitable com missions. This needs to be rectified.

Agreed. Mining is a lot of hard work and virtually no profit. I only do it on the side for fun; although the fun is somewhat fading lately.

There is ofcourse the problem of newbies.... where will they get stuff to build modules? The solution make SOL corp a real CORP. Newbies start as members and the trading hub at earth could be set to corp only. It could be made so that it allways has a supply of the resources needed for tech 1 modules... or even simpler just sells all the tech 1 mark 1 modules.

This is a very good idea indeed!

Unfortunately fixing this now would be problematic, it would freeze the power disparities between players, making it nigh on impossible for lower powered players to ever catch up. Rather it would probably have to be associated with a full reset.... or a relauch in a different shard. But doing so would be a dramatic improvement to the balance of the game.

This doesn't have to be true. Most players belong to a corp; corps have various types of players. I imagine trade being big between corp members, not so much between different corps, since most corps would want to keep scarce resources to themselves. Big corp members would help out their newbies, I would think...

A true miner corp could however want to make a profit by selling resources (as anyone should be able to do anyway).
The danger in this would be if the players with the big bucks clean out the market constantly,
so perhaps the selling system could be refined in a way to allow sellers to define more accurately to whom they want to sell their stuff.
This could leave the bigger players fending for themselves, with the little guys having prime access to the resources...

I'm not saying this would solve all problems related to this problem, but it could have a shot at working...
Frankly, I think the universe could use a reset for various reasons anyway! 16
Of course this wouldn't go over well with most players that were here from the start, I imagine,
so setting up a second server might be the safest way to go in any case.
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2013, 08:57:51 AM »

The reason a reset would have to be necessary is simply because people there will be a huge gap between those already playing and those who join.  Even the weaker people today who are like maybe 20-30k points when this is added in would have a huge head start on those just starting out. Newbies will have no chance of really catching up unless a player goes inactive. Then they might be able to pass them up.  Resources being so scarce their progress will be a slower then it is now.  Worse the newbies will start fighting amongst themselves for mining spots in and around Sol. Either they will be looting other people's mines for profit or they will just be destroying them and trying to take that spot for themselves.  Sure Emi could put a Corp ship there to to help protect people. But then you run into the problem if all the squares getting filled up. Then people going inactive and the mines are just left sitting there taking up space. So either way things when a person is just starting out is going to be a lot slower then it is now. As for having a shot at catching up for the larger players. There will be zero chance of it.  Sure a good corp will help out it's weaker members. But a good corp might also be hesitant about letting in someone just starting out.  Either the Corp might be at war with another like us or simply because some players try to just use a big corp to get ahead and then leave the corp later and try to hop around for another Corp trying to get free hand outs.  I have seen this happen in a lot of games. It is why many alliances in those games have a joining requirement.   I think in order to be fair for everyone, if this idea is added in either this server needs to be reset or a 2nd server needs to be created and leave resources as it is now here. The 1st option would be cheaper though for him. What Emi could do though to make it up to those who are already playing the game though is perhaps give them an extra ship to start with as a reward for playing the game before the reset. So that means after Sol Academy 3 ships. Not exactly a huge advantage since you would still need to outfit it with stuff later on. But enough of one to at least show he appreciates us that played before the reset.
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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2013, 04:39:32 AM »

I don't think a reset is needed or a 2nd server.

1. We need to be able to set buy/sell prices.
2. Those under say 300k power should be able to buy at sol for the current price. After that point the price should rise in relation to your current power level. (I don't think a cut off of sol mats is a good idea, just make them more costly) Also to keep smaller players from buying for the big ones a simple database flag that says the resources can't be put onto a corp ship or looted by a corp member needs to be implemented. This will give the newbies a cheaper way to grow, and play catch up. For the big boys that would mean mining on a large scale to make real upgrades.
3. The universe needs to get bigger. If the big players have to mine in large amounts then we need more systems. Also Jam's probe idea needs to happen so we can finally have a real war...especially once the universe gets bigger.
4. Players exicting from the SEA Course need to start out more capable... You really end up unable to do anything the fuel cost and the threat of pirates in Sol sector make growing very difficult. New players should exit at say 100k power, or maybe the current power but get say $1mil solars to build what they think will help them grow. They need seed money.



Lastly I think a reset would suck, the 1st 2 times I donated I converted the QP to solars to buy titans... for alot that did that it would really suck to have real money go down the drain.

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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2013, 06:14:16 AM »

Aysle i would argue that the universe should be smaller... but thats me... i prefer to actually see someone else every once in a while.
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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2013, 07:35:15 AM »

Aysle i would argue that the universe should be smaller... but thats me... i prefer to actually see someone else every once in a while.



I personally think it is better bigger.  Just put in my probes idea to help find people more.  Perhaps even a way to track Corp member's ships.  Also if they were to increase the size of the universe, even by double, it would give us a good reason to set up a base of operations somewhere. At the very least just so ships can refuel somewhere between the outer better mines, outer better SOS missions and Sol.  With the introduction of Corp ships and possible Corp stations in the future, this could be very possible and pretty useful.    I do wish I could see people more sometime.  But better detection stuff would help with that.  Mining is likely to become hell for people if it were to become really smaller.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 07:44:36 AM by JamJulLison » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2013, 01:04:52 PM »

On the subject of the economy:

Yesterday I started the building of 12 high level marines to adapt my ships to the new reality of the COM missions. I required about 250000 metal and gaz to do it. And it is only 12 manufacturing bays. I have about 100 active manufacturing bays right now.

This is to say that with the number of active players actually in the universe, I beilive we are not numerous enough to satisfy my needs only in metal and gaz (not to mention all our needs). I also buy diamonds and uranium by the 1000's to be converted as fuel so my ships can do COM missions for a few weeks without comming back to earth. In my opinion, I do not beilive the proposed economic system would work. Let start with a market for exanging modules and ships and we will see how it work then we can think of how to expand it.

Regards,

Matamaure
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SirEmi
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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2013, 03:41:28 PM »


Yeah it's too early to tell how the economy will evolve, but you can be sure it will.

There will be a story to everything that happens, for example Earth may have an event like a short supply of X mineral / gas. Then it will buy at premium prices for a while, mobilizing the miners.

Also new outposts my appear, selling cheaper minerals / gases mined on the surface, they may even take some parts of the economy from Earth meaning that to get that X mineral, you need to travel to that X star / planet that is mining it for Sol. Bringing it to Earth may also fetch a nice price while you're at it, as Earth will buy but not sell that.

All that makes for interesting news and twists, as things happen and everyone can take advantage of that to find profit opportunities. New stations / shipyards may appear as SOL Corp tries to colonize further, and events will unfold, even a war with an alien civilization could happen 1

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Matamaure001
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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2013, 04:33:25 PM »

SirEmi, I like your ideas very much!
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