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Author Topic: Decrease Marine Power Rating  (Read 8018 times)
JamJulLison
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« on: October 21, 2013, 07:28:38 PM »

Has anyone noticed just how much power marines seem to give? I just can't get my head around how people on a ship can actually increase the power a ship generates. Yes part of it could be from life support for them. But I can't see it generating so much power. If you don't believe me on how much the give your ship just look at the top rankings and looking at Admiral Raphael. On every one of his ships I have encountered they are loaded with MK 100 marines.  Not a single actually weapon. So he has raised into the top just with marines alone. Realistically I can't see marines generating that much ship power.  My suggestion is we lower this amount by more then half. Civilians and marines shouldn't add much power if any at all.  There would of course be advantages and disadvantages to it.


Pros
 -It would allow for quicker attacks from boarding ships giving them a real purpose in the game.
 -When launching an attack or seeing an incoming attack they would need to do more then just look at the odds and power ratings.
 -Players would no longer be able to inflate their scores on the top scores. (This is a pro for some people and a con for others so it is listed in both.)
 -Players won't be able to take in higher power marine ships just to get an insane long attack timer on other large ships just for the sake of annoying them with that COM bug that makes the other combat timers visible.

Cons
 -Players would no longer be able to inflate their scores on the top scores. (This is a pro for some people and a con for others so it is listed in both.)
 -People using boarding ships for COM wouldn't be able to get high paying COMs anymore. (Though they could learn to build real COM ships then)


I really think the Pros outweighs the cons here.  It isn't like they wouldn't still be useful for COM missions. It just means if people want better paying missions they would have to work on increasing their other weapon techs rather then just marines. 
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 11:31:25 AM »

There are two things that make marines a bit overbalanced as you say for power.
1. They are relatively cheap (modules certainly are. You can research them very cheaply with RP and build them with next to nothing in cash) Filling them a little more costly, and losing a battle with them costly to replace
2. They are the only weaponry that can constantly reload combat after multiple combat. This itself makes a lot less sense than the actual power rating given to a marine unit for overall power rating of the ship they are installed in.
I think i have posted at other times that a marine should be limited to:
   Only being able to attack to board a ship after the opponents shields are dropped (or armor plating) and;
   They should only be able to deploy once per battle as other weapons. It is much more likely that a laser can generate enough power to shoot more than once with enough speed in a combat round than it is for a detachment of marines launching from mothership into an enemy vessel, securing that vessel and then somehow in the middle of a space battle, re-join the mothership, reload and re-deploy into the next vessel to be boarded.
If we are to believe a marine module can do all this, then why cant we believe you can load a cannon more than once in a battle, or have an energy source to power a laser more than once, not to mention viper, which is basically a bunch of marines in a light combat vessel with no boarding capabilities. Surely they can do more ship to ship damage on multiple ships than a marine module can. Dont even get me started on nukes which i think its OK for a one off shot, but should be an AoE shot, affecting all combat vessels before needing replacement.
If we must limit conventional weaponry and allow marine to rule the weapons list for cheap, affordable multi-ship killers, then can we have energy bank modules that allow energy weapons to fire more than once in a round, ammo modules to allow for multiple rail shots etc.

Now as for the cheap rise to power by using these marine modules, giving a disproportionate power ratio to a pilot than he actually deserves: I guess what it all boils down to is, we can all get a cheap boost to personal power by doing a similar build to Admiral Raphael, but lets face it, unless there was a prize for top 5 positions, why bother? The combat ability of that build sucks big time! As I and others have shown, raw power using this method does not make you a supreme combat veteran and power player in the game, even if it gives that pilot a false feeling of superiority. Ego is this pilot's worst weakness. At the end of the day, the best ship builds will be something that combines marine with conventional weapons plus a decent defense kit out. If pilots like Raphael want to keep putting up marine only ships, i am happy to relieve them of 33-66% of their troops to re-educate them in a proper strike force, for half wages lol
More of a concern is 1 member corps taking advantage of buying cheap corp licenses to boost their personal ships available. This is a definite exploit to a corporation registration and should be severely looked at. If Sir Emi will allow 1 member corporations, i would propose that other than the cost of a corp ship license be a factor, the max number of corp ships be limited as a factor as to how many team members are in that corp. say a square of the number of members. eg  member corp = 1 corp ship max, 2 members = 4 corp ships, 3 members = 9 corp ships etc. This will allow a balance and remove an obvious exploit to buy more ships for personal gain and power. The practice of padding corp members with alts to get around these proposals needs to be strongly policed should these types of limitations be enforced on a corp.

To answer JamJul's pro's and con's directly:
PRO's:
Quote
-It would allow for quicker attacks from boarding ships giving them a real purpose in the game.
This can be achieved simply by using less marines, building either a boarding optimisation or reinforced hulls to give marine stronger actual fighting abilities than is reported. No need to reduce marine power here to be able to achieve this.
Quote
-When launching an attack or seeing an incoming attack they would need to do more then just look at the odds and power ratings.
Who looks at odds when in a battle anyway? I dont think i bother with those mathematical algorithms. Look at base enemy weaponry potential minus marine power vs your (actual) hidden defense shield/armor rating before looking at what a marine may or may not do. Marines cant board if they got no ship to board from as it e-jumps out of orbit.
CON's:
Quote
-People using boarding ships for COM wouldn't be able to get high paying COMs anymore. (Though they could learn to build real COM ships then).
Not true. the size of the boarding ship power rating in combat has nothing to do with what power of the ship that picks up that combat marker. All my ships, boarding ships and others, always "punch above their weight" meaning they are constantly doing higher combat missions than they could possibly qualify for if they were to pick them up for themselves, which has the effect of lowering the combat counter by providing a lower combat ship to do battle with. The question is, would your boarding vessel survive the battle...answer, of course it would, so long as you do your math correctly, regardless of odds. some winning battles i can boast of is winning 3:34 against with no loss of power (shield hit only)
Not wanting to play Devil's Advocate in this matter, I guess my point is, by simply lowering the power of marines wont really fix anything positive since there are always ways around these numbers. The big factor for me is that a 1 member corp is able to buy 10 or more corp vessels relatively cheaply and load them up with cheap marines to boost his/her personal power beyond what they should be physically capable of if those ships were all bought as personal licenses.
Lets limit the number of corp ships available as I suggest in this posting to reflect the numbers of corporate members in the team. That would definitely force a player not to waste so many vessels in stupid stat padding builds that couldnt beat a boy scout in real PvP battle

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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 03:08:36 PM »

First do you understand what I mean by lowering their power?  I mean the amount of power generated.  Not reducing their damage.  I am in agreement on the other weapons too. I miss the days when we were able to fire those more then once.



Quote
This can be achieved simply by using less marines, building either a boarding optimisation or reinforced hulls to give marine stronger actual fighting abilities than is reported. No need to reduce marine power here to be able to achieve this.

The issue is how much power manpower actually gives.  A weak MK 1 marine itself gives 6,000 power. If you move some troops over from it into a MK 1 laser it will give you the same increase.  That means without any marines if you put a MK 1 laser on and then hired troops on it, it actually would generate less power then that MK 1 marine module.  I just can't understand how troops themselves can generate so much power  Yes I understand as troops are moved to an area the module gets partially powered. But would a marine pod really need to generate that much power consider it's the troops doing the damage and not the pod itself?  With how much power marines give to a ship it makes me wonder if we got a pod load of Saiyans in there or something. lol


Quote
Who looks at odds when in a battle anyway? I dont think i bother with those mathematical algorithms. Look at base enemy weaponry potential minus marine power vs your (actual) hidden defense shield/armor rating before looking at what a marine may or may not do. Marines cant board if they got no ship to board from as it e-jumps out of orbit.

I do look at them but I know they aren't everything. That said when both ships look to be as well designed looking at the odds can come in handy. This idea here though would make odds completely useless I guess. So perhaps they could be removed. I would have no issue with that lol.



Quote
Not true. the size of the boarding ship power rating in combat has nothing to do with what power of the ship that picks up that combat marker. All my ships, boarding ships and others, always "punch above their weight" meaning they are constantly doing higher combat missions than they could possibly qualify for if they were to pick them up for themselves, which has the effect of lowering the combat counter by providing a lower combat ship to do battle with. The question is, would your boarding vessel survive the battle...answer, of course it would, so long as you do your math correctly, regardless of odds. some winning battles i can boast of is winning 3:34 against with no loss of power (shield hit only)
Not wanting to play Devil's Advocate in this matter, I guess my point is, by simply lowering the power of marines wont really fix anything positive since there are always ways around these numbers. The big factor for me is that a 1 member corp is able to buy 10 or more corp vessels relatively cheaply and load them up with cheap marines to boost his/her personal power beyond what they should be physically capable of if those ships were all bought as personal licenses.
Lets limit the number of corp ships available as I suggest in this posting to reflect the numbers of corporate members in the team. That would definitely force a player not to waste so many vessels in stupid stat padding builds that couldnt beat a boy scout in real PvP battle


The power your ship generates always has something to do with the COM missions you pick up and it always has.  The more power your ship has, the higher the power of the COM missions.  If it is low powered then you will just get low powered ones. That said you can still on occasion end up with challenging COMs. Though that seems to only occur for me when I am doing more then 1 COM mission at the same time at the same planet/moon/asteroid belt.



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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 12:27:17 PM »

Quote
The power your ship generates always has something to do with the COM missions you pick up and it always has.  The more power your ship has, the higher the power of the COM missions.  If it is low powered then you will just get low powered ones. That said you can still on occasion end up with challenging COMs. Though that seems to only occur for me when I am doing more then 1 COM mission at the same time at the same planet/moon/asteroid belt.
Perhaps i wasnt clear enough with what i meant here. I have a "pickup ship" say 5M power + which gets on average some good com mission payouts with around 4-5M power and 8-10M$ payout. That ship then passes the mission off to say a 3M power ship. What that does is increase the odds against you winning, but lowers the combat timer to countdown. If your 3M power ship is designed well enough and you have all your tech and bonuses from officers/vip etc in place, then likely it will deal with the much higher rated enemy OK. That was the point i was making there. Bulked out, overly powered marine only ships are not the only way of gaining big com missions. You can then give them off to lower powered boarding ships if you so choose.
Quote
The issue is how much power manpower actually gives.  A weak MK 1 marine itself gives 6,000 power. If you move some troops over from it into a MK 1 laser it will give you the same increase
Again not true. a full MK I gives 3000 power in hp. That figure can be seen if you select modules and then filter to personnel and add the marines x3 for their training hp. (not including any vip/officer bonuses, or ship optimisations. the math gets messy and complex when you start adding up bonuses. i have a ship with physically around 290k personnel power on it, but rates at just over 2M power. Still trying to produce the numbers to figure out how lol) But anyway that is 1000 trained personnel storming on your door waving weapons and shouting out marching steps...a laser takes 50 men to man and gets all its power from the cutting edge of its weaponry only. Men are there to push the button only on the weapon. Comparing a thousand armed men to 1 laser canon isnt an easy one.
Quote
First do you understand what I mean by lowering their power?  I mean the amount of power generated.  Not reducing their damage.
Now you got me quite perplexed. By doing this, then effectively you will increase the actual weaponry power of a marine module, not reduce it. Already as I/we agree, they are too powerful as a module. Doing this to them, as happened with Armor, then effectively a 3M+ power boarding marine ship would in actual fact be of a factor more powerful than that reported (eg armor is a factor of 1/2, so for every 1k armor, your power is only reported at 500 but defends as a 1K power module. Now imagine what would happen to the balance if you did this to an already overwhelming multi-use weapon?
The only way i can see to curb this stat padding of marines to falsely elevate your position on the leaderboard is as i suggested earlier in this posting. To be honest i dont really care about the leaderboard unless there was some sort of weekly prize in it to be up there. Let those players feel supreme by having a "show of power" on the listing. I know their true power by taking into account their overall weapons/defense layout and ship specializations. if i chose to, i could elevate my position many pegs up that ladder also by several methods, very quickly. It doesnt make me or my ships any stronger than i already am unless that increase has been done with balance and thought put into it as part of an overall genuine power increase. Heck, i have a class III frigate that could likely rip a hole in most pilots largest titan class vessel they can muster, with only 1 or 2 shots given the right weapons loadout, some good shooting and the type of opponent faced.
The most annoying thing  i guess is the use of such vessels to just create a huge combat timer, which effectively leads to no combat at all since no one is going to sit and wait around 2 or 3 days to resolve the issue, so why bother building it for (PvP)combat in the first place. Obviously not built with PvP in mind at all but likely just to annoy and frustrate players and have them waste their time with pointless combat timers and initiatives.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 06:01:21 PM »

Quote
Perhaps i wasnt clear enough with what i meant here. I have a "pickup ship" say 5M power + which gets on average some good com mission payouts with around 4-5M power and 8-10M$ payout. That ship then passes the mission off to say a 3M power ship. What that does is increase the odds against you winning, but lowers the combat timer to countdown. If your 3M power ship is designed well enough and you have all your tech and bonuses from officers/vip etc in place, then likely it will deal with the much higher rated enemy OK. That was the point i was making there. Bulked out, overly powered marine only ships are not the only way of gaining big com missions. You can then give them off to lower powered boarding ships if you so choose.


But you had to put other stuff on there to give them that kinda power. Stuff that is a lot more expensive then marines.



Quote
Again not true. a full MK I gives 3000 power in hp. That figure can be seen if you select modules and then filter to personnel and add the marines x3 for their training hp. (not including any vip/officer bonuses, or ship optimisations. the math gets messy and complex when you start adding up bonuses. i have a ship with physically around 290k personnel power on it, but rates at just over 2M power. Still trying to produce the numbers to figure out how lol) But anyway that is 1000 trained personnel storming on your door waving weapons and shouting out marching steps...a laser takes 50 men to man and gets all its power from the cutting edge of its weaponry only. Men are there to push the button only on the weapon. Comparing a thousand armed men to 1 laser canon isnt an easy one.


I compared their overall power boost they gave. Before adding troops to it and after.  It gave a overall power increase of 6,000.   The reason I am comparing them to the lasers is because lasers in general are lower in power generated from manpower because it requires less troops. I would also like to point out that the MK 1 marines when full does around the same damage as a MK 1 laser.  Also like I have been saying this isn't about the damage potential.  This is about the power that is generated on the ships. This would like saying that in my bedroom my body somehow generates power that can be detected by outside sources.


Quote
Now you got me quite perplexed. By doing this, then effectively you will increase the actual weaponry power of a marine module, not reduce it. Already as I/we agree, they are too powerful as a module. Doing this to them, as happened with Armor, then effectively a 3M+ power boarding marine ship would in actual fact be of a factor more powerful than that reported (eg armor is a factor of 1/2, so for every 1k armor, your power is only reported at 500 but defends as a 1K power module. Now imagine what would happen to the balance if you did this to an already overwhelming multi-use weapon?
The only way i can see to curb this stat padding of marines to falsely elevate your position on the leaderboard is as i suggested earlier in this posting. To be honest i dont really care about the leaderboard unless there was some sort of weekly prize in it to be up there. Let those players feel supreme by having a "show of power" on the listing. I know their true power by taking into account their overall weapons/defense layout and ship specializations. if i chose to, i could elevate my position many pegs up that ladder also by several methods, very quickly. It doesnt make me or my ships any stronger than i already am unless that increase has been done with balance and thought put into it as part of an overall genuine power increase. Heck, i have a class III frigate that could likely rip a hole in most pilots largest titan class vessel they can muster, with only 1 or 2 shots given the right weapons loadout, some good shooting and the type of opponent faced.
The most annoying thing  i guess is the use of such vessels to just create a huge combat timer, which effectively leads to no combat at all since no one is going to sit and wait around 2 or 3 days to resolve the issue, so why bother building it for (PvP)combat in the first place. Obviously not built with PvP in mind at all but likely just to annoy and frustrate players and have them waste their time with pointless combat timers and initiatives


Exactly this would make them more useful.  This is about the power generated.  Realistically speaking I can't see how a person can generate so much power.  It would make marines more useful for quick raids because attack timers would be much shorter. On the downside people wouldn't be able to use marines to padd their ships up for higher power COMs.   Marines still would suffer the same weakness of being vulnerable to ships that have a lot of real weapons available.  So say for example what Raph has been doing abusing that bug at Jupiter. The marines wouldn't give him such a huge timer anymore and the enemy ships could properly dealt with in a shorter time.  In reverse though it would make it easier for him to hit targets of ours he might find. But it is worth the trade off since it means the same for any stuff of his we fine.  Positioning on the leaderboard would also then be tougher to get.  BTW it is the marines themselves that generate the power not so much the marine modules.  So it could make using vipers actually more useful then lasers for fast raiding. The only reason lasers are better for that now is because of how much extra power requiring more marines means.  So not only would this reduce padding from large marine ships but it would also reduce it a bit from ships loaded with vipers too.  This might actually encourage more people to work on laser tech.   As for railguns, sadly because of their insane cost I can't blame anyone for not wanting to build them.    I saw you mentioned optimizations. Please keep in mind not everyone can afford those.  The boarding ship one in particular is pretty high.  I just now decided to see exactly how much power a MK 100 filled with marines would add.  It adds 154,500 overall power to the ship.  So say a ship has 15 of them. That is 2,317,500 power added just from the marines alone.  That is assuming the person has all officers and same combat tactics levels researched and there is no reason they shouldn't have the latter.  Now I could understand some power needed to power the marine assault unit pods. But as you are aware the power seems to come from the marines themselves which doesn't make sense unless this is a dragonball z like universe where everyone has a power level.
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 09:12:50 PM »

My only comment about the marines power is that I sort of assumed they were in some way similar to marines in most futuristic games. By that I mean they have advanced weapons, probably a power/environmental suit that would both protect them as armor but also augment their physical strength in hand to hand combat. Not that this has any direct correlation but in Starcraft if you have one or two dozen marines and get them all hopped up on Stim-packs you would be surprised what they can chew through. xD

If what you said is true though JamJul and a Marine Module and Laser Module at the same level do the same(ish) damage but don't have the same power then I think that should probably be addressed. Also this is just something I was kind of thinking about. If the Marine Modules are basically used as shuttles to get marines on board the enemy ship then I would think they would get damaged from being shot at in combat at some point and require repair of some kind. Idk just something that popped into my head.
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 12:18:15 AM »

Marines:

You forgot some facts: marines fire last, to be effective you need a very strong defense. Marines by themselfe are almost worthless. To compensate marine never miss and attack all ennemy ships in the battle. Marine became effective when the dodge rule were introduced. Before nobody care about it. Since the dodge rules, it  became the most effective weapon in our arsenal. It offer the most bang for the buck. Admiral Raphael just found it and use it to its advantage. Good for him. If you want to beat him, just do it better, do not try to change the rules.  In this game, all weapons have not been created equals, do not blame someone that find out the best weapon stategy.

Yes I also use shields and marines a lot, Sure I will not be happy if the rules change but I would redo my calculations and get the new best startegy (solar wise). But be aware that what you propose could be a big set back for me.   
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 02:00:48 AM »

I just want a better use for marines besides helping with COM missions and annoying people with high attack timers.  I want to give them a real use.  I also can't see how people themselves generate this kind of power.  It is like saying 1200 of you can generate a power rating that can be detected as a ships power equal to that of a fully powered laser.  Humans just don't give up that kind of power signature or any that I am aware of.
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 12:43:19 AM »

This thread went well.  laugh
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 08:10:42 AM »

The power of a marine doesnt concern me other than the repeated attack they can muster. Of all the combat weaponry, that sort of multiple space combat seems to me the most unrealistic to expect from 1 contingent of marines. I would suspect they would be pretty worn out, their weaponry needing reloading, their boarding modules need refueling....after a few battles at max. Plus i reckon if i had full ship shielding and the hardest diamond armor a space vessel could carry, how the heck is a bunch of small-armed squishy oxygen-breathing organic life forms ever going to get inside of my diamond studded hard shielded ships? By shooting sling shots and bb guns into it til i yield? lol Maybe they get in cause i am laughing so much at their feeble attempts to crack laser hardened and near light speed rail gun protected shielding that i accidentally open up the access ports to allow marine ingress.
I also like the power of the marine, because it gives weak pilots an over inflated sense of command and power and so they fail to build true combat warships, which makes them easy to kill in a real combat round
Quote
I also can't see how people themselves generate this kind of power.  It is like saying 1200 of you can generate a power rating that can be detected as a ships power equal to that of a fully powered laser.  Humans just don't give up that kind of power signature or any that I am aware of.
I think you are missing the point here Jam-Jul, about what power stands for. Its not some generated electro-magnetic signature. It probably only takes 2 or 3 combat veterans to blow up the most powerful laser installment, which makes marine way more powerful than laser, so long as you can get those troops on the ground without detection and set to sabotage. (darn french word)
If you arm 25,750 marines (Marine mark C) with the latest ordnance available to them (laser and ballistic hand weaponry, explosive detonators, bio engineered exo-skeletons etc) other than the fact likely they would get in each others way trying to kill the opposition, they would present a powerful piece of weaponry. Certainly beats a laser class V lol
OK now you say, i am arguing for and against marines. Its true. I agree marines are powerful, but that they should have limitations imposed on them just like all other weaponry, including the most powerful weaponry created by man, the nuke, has
Lets face it, in reality, i would back up 1 nuke against an entire fleet of marines if i was allowed to test that. In this game, the nuke is the weakest weapon in the game, since it can only be used once, against one opponent and can be neutralised with defence to 100%. No other weapon can be countered so easily. This is where i find the concept of "real space combat" to fail miserably. Marines get to hit multiple times, even though they are only people, but laser tech cant fire more than one round off in a combat, and nukes are just powerful fireworks doing nil damage to most vessels when detonated. Lets all take a reality pill and re-do the whole power/ratio thing and revamp the combat system
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 09:44:51 AM »

Lets all take a reality pill and re-do the whole power/ratio thing and revamp the combat system

Why stop in the combat system? Just restart the whole game and make everyone start from scratch. That way I can pawn you all.  laugh
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 11:48:16 AM »

Lets all take a reality pill and re-do the whole power/ratio thing and revamp the combat system

Why stop in the combat system? Just restart the whole game and make everyone start from scratch. That way I can pawn you all.  laugh

You would have to find us first. Dadds and his guys would easily get out further and mine where you can`t find them.  Same goes for a lot of my people. You would also find more competition the the pirating world. Most of us in the top corps aren't even playing seriosly anymore. The only reason you passed many of us up is cause of that and cause we want quality combat ships. Not overly bloated pieces of crap.

As for the combat system. It does need redone. As for marine power. To me a power rating of a ship is how much energy it generates so others can detect it.  Somehing not unusual and quite common in scify.I did just have a though though for an optimization. Power Regulater. At full optimization it would cause your ship to only generate half of it's full power. So your ship only appears weaker then it really is. COM missions be uneffected by this. This would also allow us to shorten our combat timers
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 05:53:05 PM »

I've always interpreted "power" in this game to be a loose indication of the threat it posses in combat. Obviously though not all "power" is created equal.
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 12:44:22 PM »

Quote
I've always interpreted "power" in this game to be a loose indication of the threat it posses in combat. Obviously though not all "power" is created equal.
Quite correct Fenix. It is a loose indication only. Mostly used in reality to decide combat timer only lately. I have combat vessels that regularly take on odds of 4:12 or even 4:32 power ratios and win very comfortably. Its to do with how well that ship is decked out, its optimisations, and its pilots combat prowess/status (officers, vip, combat/tactical sciences etc)
And in the sense of marine power, it can only be used once all the other weapons attacks are concluded as Matamure mentions, so all a combat vessel needs to do is drop enemy shields/armor before running out of conventional weapons, and those over-rated, bloated and fat marine ships just end up as target practice and POW sources (good for the crematorium furnaces, or retraining into an efficient combat vessel). Using this tactic, a well built true combat vessel can defeat a boarding vessel many times its power rating without getting a scratch.

I guess this thread is more to do about players appearing stronger than they really are, and the heavy combat timers imposed by using marines with its current power rating on board ships. Both of which are annoying, but tolerable. As a game or power imbalance, its not such an issue and can be overcome with simple pencil & paper math (or a calculator if you prefer)

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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2013, 03:52:13 AM »

For me the power is just the power a ship gives off. But I see what you are saying and your right that is how it is. I myself would prefer it the other way. It would make more sense for this sorta game.
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