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JamJulLison
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 05:52:51 PM »

The two issues have a lot to do with each other though.   To me this is a domestic matter.  Remember when Dadds wanted to outlaw Raph.  If we had said no we were still going to let him go after within sol system despite the GC charter.  We had considered it a matter between IMG and Raph/SSS.  This is a matter between Me and EoS.  I am not even bringing the rest of PMI into this. They can go about their own buisness. Nothing was getting done when I tried talking so I had to try something else.
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sargas
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2014, 06:21:28 PM »

This topic is not about Captain Jam-Jul versus EoS, it is about Captain Jam-Jul versus GC law.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 06:24:09 PM by sargas » Report to moderator   Logged
JamJulLison
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2014, 06:41:16 PM »

With IMG and Raph though an exception was going to be made though for him to attack Raph in Sol since we understood it was a domestic matter between just them.  This isn't much different. Though in this case it is over corperate theft.
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sargas
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2014, 06:44:39 PM »

and again, this topic is about your breaking Galactic Council law, nothing else...

As far as I am concerned, your other concern is up for mediation in the Counsil Chambers, and needs to be resolved there.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 06:47:10 PM by sargas » Report to moderator   Logged
JamJulLison
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« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2014, 07:02:40 PM »

As far as I am concerned the 2 matters are connected and so they should be handled in the same issues.  I didn't attack the station to be an butthole or to just see it blow up.   My reasonings are quite clear in the matter and it wouldn't have happened if this matter had been handled better by you.  Hell no progress would have likely been made at all if I hadn't acted as I did.  I would like to bring up the case of BillNorthon and a comment made by Dadds when I had wanted to add the guy to the outlaw list.  I will quote it here.


Quote
On the subject of the 2nd request however, i am not familiar with the pirate code of internal dealings, and so cant comment only to say i have no objection toward how you deal with your dirty laundry just that i wish you would do the laundry more often. Sargas is looking like he needs a makeover (LOL sorry cant help myself..belly laugh).....be careful in the future on where you pick up bargain basement pilots guys. He partitioned to us also to be a member but was rejected as his resume didnt measure up


I have bolded the important line there.  That right there says clearly to me that IMG didn't care if we attacked him within Sol.  Since this is a similar circumstance, I felt that should be brought up. Of course in this case, the theft is even larger.  How does it all look to me from my end?  It looks like you don't give a give a crap it the theft might have hurt PMI or that it happened at all?  It looks like your condoning it. As mata's leader and considering all that, that means you should be held responsible as well.  This move by me not only helped to relieve some frustruation, but lets me show you just how upset I am over this and how seriously I take it.  It also let you see first hand how much that corp ship has been weakened from the theft.  Also I had 3 or 4 COM missions I was ready to do. One of which I was currently on.  They had to be aborted becaused of the weakened state of the ship.  This results in a huge loss in profits there too. Most of the income I was bringing in with that ship I was using to help out the other corp ships.  So this hurts the corp on multiple levels. Add that in with feeling betrayed by the both of you, I was really raging and am still really upset over the matter.  Does it violate the charter?  Yes it does. But did I have a good reason?  Yes I did.  Is there past GC comments made that could possible support such an action?  Yes there is. I quoted it right up there.
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« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2014, 07:47:16 PM »

As far as I am concerned the 2 matters are connected and so they should be handled in the same issues.  I didn't attack the station to be an butthole or to just see it blow up.   My reasonings are quite clear in the matter and it wouldn't have happened if this matter had been handled better by you.  Hell no progress would have likely been made at all if I hadn't acted as I did.  I would like to bring up the case of BillNorthon and a comment made by Dadds when I had wanted to add the guy to the outlaw list.  I will quote it here.


Quote
On the subject of the 2nd request however, i am not familiar with the pirate code of internal dealings, and so cant comment only to say i have no objection toward how you deal with your dirty laundry just that i wish you would do the laundry more often. Sargas is looking like he needs a makeover (LOL sorry cant help myself..belly laugh).....be careful in the future on where you pick up bargain basement pilots guys. He partitioned to us also to be a member but was rejected as his resume didnt measure up


I have bolded the important line there.  That right there says clearly to me that IMG didn't care if we attacked him within Sol.  Since this is a similar circumstance, I felt that should be brought up. Of course in this case, the theft is even larger.  How does it all look to me from my end?  It looks like you don't give a give a crap it the theft might have hurt PMI or that it happened at all?  It looks like your condoning it. As mata's leader and considering all that, that means you should be held responsible as well.  This move by me not only helped to relieve some frustruation, but lets me show you just how upset I am over this and how seriously I take it.  It also let you see first hand how much that corp ship has been weakened from the theft.  Also I had 3 or 4 COM missions I was ready to do. One of which I was currently on.  They had to be aborted becaused of the weakened state of the ship.  This results in a huge loss in profits there too. Most of the income I was bringing in with that ship I was using to help out the other corp ships.  So this hurts the corp on multiple levels. Add that in with feeling betrayed by the both of you, I was really raging and am still really upset over the matter.  Does it violate the charter?  Yes it does. But did I have a good reason?  Yes I did.  Is there past GC comments made that could possible support such an action?  Yes there is. I quoted it right up there.

and another admission of guilt.
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2014, 08:01:21 PM »

You act like I have been trying to deny the whole thing. I have been open and honest about this whole thing. 
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sargas
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« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2014, 08:21:14 PM »

my losses in this matter are $4,114,314 in replacement value.
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2014, 08:42:11 PM »

And if some of the modules are not returned that is just likely to get higher. Ceasefire is until friday as I said. Then I will begin hunting for your other stations if some are not returned. I would prefer the shield modules but since I didn't keep a record of all the mods, some of the others would work. I showed a battle report that shows some of those as proof that those were there.
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Dadds
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2014, 10:27:44 PM »

OK, here at least is my thoughts after reading all the discussion between the two parties:

The attack outside of the Sol system on the EoS fuel depot is of no consequence to the GC as it doesnt contravene any one of our charters, so will be ignored as evidence of guilt here.

We have clearly got 2 issues here.
1. Has the Galactic Charter been broken with the opening fire upon another corporation as to cause destruction of property? and;
2. Was the removal of PMI property from their corp ships considered theft?

Regarding note 2:
"Each corporation leader sets his or her own internal code of conduct and values to be adhered to by its members while serving that corporation. Some of those values are written codes while some are verbal or implied. The corporation leader gives certain trusts and permissions to its members in accordance with an understanding and acceptance of these values or codes of conduct, to comply and to uphold to them"

Individual and/or Corporate codes of conduct are always internal values set upon its members to follow, or face their own internal consequences based on that corporations legal, moral and ethical rulings. It is not up to the GC to tell Corporation leaders how they should run their own internal rules and laws. At the very most all we can do in extreme circumstances is to let corporations know that we either approve or disapprove of their conduct within the social community as a whole, and where the actions are considered socially unacceptable, to have that person or persons declared outlaw status.
As such, the theft, actual or perceived by that corporation's code of conduct is not an issue the GC can make a ruling on or to issue any demands to said individuals to "make good" with returning any alleged stolen property. That is for a forum with its own thread for corporations to "put their views and thoughts toward the issue"
On that note however, We at IMG will recognise the issue at note 2 to be included into "mitigation" for actions against the charter.

Regarding note 1:

Is there a definite breach of the Galactic Charter? I draw members attention to article 3 of the Galactic Charter constitution;
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3. Attacks in Sol except as authorized by terms 3, 4, or 5 are forbidden.
In article 3 JamJul's action within the orbit of Jupiter is clearly in breach of this article.
Sargas from EoS accuses JamJul of this breach; JamJul Lison admits to this breach and as a clear cut rule, IMG does concur that it is indeed a breach of conduct and that Sargas has, in this instance, followed through with correct procedure in accordance with our own ruling in article 3 subsection 2 of the charter, being;
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3.2 Each Corp's GC representative or leader shall be authorized to appoint a Corp member to perform a single retaliatory strike after the fact upon said aggressor if it was not possible to stop the raid in progress. So long as said aggressor is NOT a member of a GC Corp. Raids where a GC Corp member is the aggressor must be brought before the GC for a vote of repercussions.

It is true that there is precedence in dealing with this similar kind of issue in the past in the case of BillNorthon and with Raphael from SSS. The main difference here though is that both those other cases were brought to the GC and voted upon BEFORE action was granted against the player(s) in question.
Does prior consent on a similar ruling automatically infers that permission will be granted in all cases of this nature? My answer is, "NO, each case must have due process followed through before the GC acknowledges it as a legal action"
If this case had have been brought to the GC prior to an attack, quite likely it would have received a "no challenge" vote in dealing with internal issues from IMG. In saying this, and bringing into consideration the mitigating circumstances at note 2 as discussed earlier, the GC now need to consider a ruling on this case, considering the following in summing up:
a. The breach has been acknowledged and is not under question. The accuser, the defendant and IMG concur that the article of law HAS been breached.
b. There is no further evidence presented to suggest this was a retaliatory strike against an earlier incursion against a GC member.
c. There are mitigating circumstances outlining the defendants reasonings for being found in breach of the Galactic Charter article 3.

There is no need for a guilty vote, as JamJul Lison confesses and has no challenge to the breach, but when considering the penalty I would draw the Jury toward the circumstances leading up to the event;
i) the loss of corporate equipment to a corporate leader is a stab to the heart of his corporation and can feel at the least as an act of betrayal, and at worse as an attack against the corporation power base.
ii) that the party attacked by JamJul has previously been openly called a friend, and helped assist the accusing party to break from PMI amicably to form their own corporation, EoS, adding to the feeling of "act of betrayal"
iii) attempts to negotiate internally to have the equipment in question returned failed in talks between the involved parties building frustration

Does all the mitigating circumstances justify JamJul Lison's actions? Can there be truly cases here as with "Justifiable homicide" or is it a case of, "The law is the law, equally and justly for all"?
The punishment for a breach of our own self-governed rules can range from a formal rep-remand, to expulsion from the GC, based on the severity of the breach.

In considering a suitable sanction or punishment. I draw upon JamJul's mitigation circumstance, JamJul Lison and PMI's past history within the formation of the GC, his personal restrictions to his prior activities and that of his corporation by accepting the self governance of the GC and his continued hard work and dedication in working toward maintaining the Galactic Council.

I would further like to petition the plantiff, Sargas of [EoS] to consider what he thinks is suitable punishment to suit the crime as well as to hear from the defendant, JamJul Lison, before the remaining eligible GC members casts a ruling on this matter.

That is all for now. Case will be adjourned until we receive final comments from both the plaintiff and the defendant, before resuming to cast our ruling.

Dadds, member of the [GC], CiC of [IMG], acting chairperson and "devils advocate" in these precedings
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sargas
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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2014, 11:53:59 PM »

Thank you, Captain Dadds, I know it was a long and exhausting decision.

The attack ot Sargas Oil #73 was never meant to be any kind of evidence (I did not bring it up, but JJL did).  It never entered my equation because it was not forbidden under GC law.

Please allow me a rebuttal.

"i) the loss of corporate equipment to a corporate leader is a stab to the heart of his corporation and can feel at the least as an act of betrayal, and at worse as an attack against the corporation power base.
ii) that the party attacked by JamJul has previously been openly called a friend, and helped assist the accusing party to break from PMI amicably to form their own corporation, EoS, adding to the feeling of "act of betrayal"
iii) attempts to negotiate internally to have the equipment in question returned failed in talks between the involved parties building frustration"

i. this is another subject altogether, mediation is inprogress.

ii. an amicable split between friends, followed by accusations of abetting theft by a friend...'act of betrayal'...kinda, yeah...don't paint me as the bad guy here as far as frendship is concerned...

iii. no comment...


All I want out of this is:

1. an apology
2. the solars I can prove I lost (~4 million)
3. the immediate return of 881 imperial citizens.

Any punitive damages awarded will be awarded by the GC itself in a fair manner (remember, there are sanctions that need o be imposed for the crime)
I have requested mediation in the other matter.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:16:54 AM by sargas » Report to moderator   Logged
JamJulLison
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 12:07:13 AM »

I won't even think about giving you any of that until some of the modules are returned to me. You may want to treat this as a seperate issue but for me it is one in the same.   

Dadds I am glad you see where I am coming from and understand how these are connected.  Your right I was wrong for what I did.  But in my opinion I had a very good reason to.  I don't think Sargas understood how upset I was over this matter and how upset I still am.  I will take whatever punishment is coming to me. But I won't rest until this matter with modules is resolved. Corperate theft is bad enough when someone you don't know well does it like Bill did.  But it is worse when a friend betrays you and does it. Especially when he should know I would have been willing to work something out if he had come to me. Then it gets worse then another friend doesn't help. He said he would look into it on our forums. But after that it was the usual bullcrap responses.  BTW I would like to point out it cost me $5,250,000 Solars to destroy that station. So he wasn't the only one taking a loss there.  I felt a point had to be made to him and I made it. Though I am not quite sure if he gets the point.  I was willing to risk my GC membership and spend solars to give him a taste of how frusterated I am over this whole thing. 
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 12:11:12 AM »

Also on the subject of losses. Consider how many solars it will take to replace what was lost on the Corp ship? Think of how long and how much it will take to get the corp points back up to what was lost with what was taken.  What you lost was only a small amount compared to all that.
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sargas
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2014, 12:49:54 AM »

What I lost was exactually that, what I lost.  Because of an illegal attack by you.

What you think you lost is a subject that is open for mediation.

And I demand the return of 881 of my citizens!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 03:19:32 AM by sargas » Report to moderator   Logged
JamJulLison
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 04:15:39 AM »

This illegal attack wouldn't have been made if it wasn't for the theft from the corp or if you had at least seemed to show you were truely interested in trying to help me get some of those modules back. Instead I get the crappy bureaucratic responses from you.  A friend handles it as a friend. They work to resolve the situation. After the first time you asked me for a list of the lost modules I explained I never made a backup copy of stuff n the big corp ship. I never thought I needed to.. Then I got some bullcrap responses then again you ask me for that list despite my previous answer. You were just giving me the run around here.  You also give me the responses saying that what he did before joining your corp don't matter. Which says to me also you don't give a crap about PMI's losses from the theft. As the leader of your corp and seeming to support his actions, I hold you and your corp just as responsible as Mata is.  You told me you didn't want another BillNorthon situation when you left when I told you that you could have some stuff from the corp mining ships I was making.  I explained they were gift. Well what mata has done has not only created a situaiton very much like the BillNorthon but it has also created one similar to what happened with Razgr1z when he was in IMG in their early days. 

Fact is I could have went about this the legal way and gotten approval to hit you all I wanted.  But what would that have accomplished? You still have your powers on the forum and would have seen it coming. You would have not known how a low blow to you can feel in a game such as this.  I get this upset you. I get you took a loss.  But so did PMI when mata did what he did.  He dealt a low blow.  Your attitude about that whole thing is what lead me to hold you responsible for this whole thing.  I gave you chance after chance. Finally I said to hell with it.  I decided to send you a message. One you would get loud of clear.  I might consider paying you back for you losses here but only if I get what was taken from us.  If it is not returned by friday, the ceasefire will end and I will proceed to come after your stations no matter where you set them up. You might see this attack as a seperate issue. But I do not. This attack came about because of the theft and because of your attitude about the whole thing.  If it results in PMI being thrown out of the GC then so be it. As much as I like the GC and I want it to work, I will not stand by and allow corperate theft to go unpunished.  Nor will I ignore the acts of betrayal by people I thought were my friends.  If you really consider me a friend you will do what you can to make this situation right, then I will apoligize and repay you for your losses.  I don't want to lose you as a friend.  But I can't ignore what has been done.
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