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JamJulLison
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« on: October 27, 2014, 03:22:39 AM »

You locked your post before I had a chance to reply.  Like right before.  Here is what I have to say


I can't speak for my members but right now you are still on my KOS list.  Sorry Jake but after alll you did to support Dadds I can't just give you a get out of jail free card.  When the war broke out I tried to explain to you what really happened. I even encouraged you to look at the forums. But you continued to support Dadds and believe he told you.  Everyone else could see how he had lost it but you continued to support him and helped him to wage war.  Not even the "I was just obeying orders" excuse will fly with me. I gave you a chance to get out of there.  Now only that Raph has hit you hard do you tuck your tail in between your legs and try to get out of there.  By siding with Dadds and even refusing to look into what was really going on and seeing reason, you have shown yourself to me to be almost as bad as him. Even after when it seemed like Dadds was barely even active you continued on the war attacking TGE and other corporations Dadds had declared war on.  With Dadds pretty much gone surely you saw you were in it alone and if you really didn't want the fighting you would have went ahead and left sooner.  But you didn't. You kept up the war yourself.   You have a long way going to ever regain my trust.  Somehow I doubt that is ever going to happen.
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 06:04:21 AM »

Emperor. Jake is in talks with SPQNR at the moment. He received his punishment for whatever happened in the past. You've had a considerable amount of time to settle the bill. If the most powerful player in the galaxy can show mercy, perhaps you can too.

At any rate, if he does become a Senator of New Rome, the Republic asks you to refrain from attacking him.
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 12:07:22 PM »

Emperor. Jake is in talks with SPQNR at the moment. He received his punishment for whatever happened in the past. You've had a considerable amount of time to settle the bill. If the most powerful player in the galaxy can show mercy, perhaps you can too.

At any rate, if he does become a Senator of New Rome, the Republic asks you to refrain from attacking him.


I am aware he joined SPQNR now and that we can't touch him now. But he received punishment from raph and the reason for their war was different then their own. Theirs was a conflict between Dadds and Raph that Jake had been caught up in for a long time.  The reason for our war with IMG is because Dadds betrayed TGE and ITO just over a matter of opinion.  Jake went along with Dadds on this one so I consider him just as guilty of betraying us as Dadds. Especially considering officially IMG and ITO was allies. This isn't just about me and my corp, it is about ITO as well.  I know Joolz feels much the same way about this as I do.   Hell most of the attempted assaults in this war have been done by Jake and not Dadds.  Raph's punishment to him is a totally different matter then what we want.   Now I am not sure if Joolz would agree to this or not but there is something i'd like from Jake.


Jake here is the deal. As you know we can't touch you right now. You are wanting to prove you have changed your ways. Am I correct? If your really sorry then  I'd like a formal apology on here in the announcements section from you to both TGE and ITO.   Yes Dadds was the one who snapped and declared war. But you went along with the decision. By doing so you were  betraying allies of TGE and ITO as well.  Whether Joolz will accept your apology I am not sure. But it is worth a try. I on the other hand will if your willing to do it.  If your wondering why I am suggesting ITO despite it not being my corp, the matter is simple. Fact is I try to look after Joolz and the rest of ITO. They are my friends.  Like Rostin, I try to look after my friends.  I feel at the very least after all that has happened that they deserve an apology. Just as we do. But they deserve it more because they were fellow members of the GC alongside IMG when they were betrayed.
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 04:05:57 PM »


I am aware he joined SPQNR now and that we can't touch him now. But he received punishment from raph and the reason for their war was different then their own. Theirs was a conflict between Dadds and Raph that Jake had been caught up in for a long time.1  The reason for our war with IMG is because Dadds betrayed TGE and ITO just over a matter of opinion.  Jake went along with Dadds on this one so I consider him just as guilty of betraying us as Dadds. Especially considering officially IMG and ITO was allies. This isn't just about me and my corp, it is about ITO as well.  I know Joolz feels much the same way about this as I do.   Hell most of the attempted assaults in this war have been done by Jake and not Dadds.  Raph's punishment to him is a totally different matter then what we want.   Now I am not sure if Joolz would agree to this or not but there is something i'd like from Jake.


Jake here is the deal. As you know we can't touch you right now. You are wanting to prove you have changed your ways. Am I correct? If your really sorry then  I'd like a formal apology on here in the announcements section from you to both TGE and ITO.   Yes Dadds was the one who snapped and declared war. But you went along with the decision. By doing so you were  betraying allies of TGE and ITO as well.  Whether Joolz will accept your apology I am not sure. But it is worth a try. I on the other hand will if your willing to do it.  If your wondering why I am suggesting ITO despite it not being my corp, the matter is simple. Fact is I try to look after Joolz and the rest of ITO. They are my friends2.  Like Rostin, I try to look after my friends3.  I feel at the very least after all that has happened that they deserve an apology. Just as we do. But they deserve it more because they were fellow members of the GC alongside IMG when they were betrayed4.

1a war that was supported and sanctioned by PMI. (you were even on Dadds side with that one)

2so was I until you decided I was taking too long with my investigation regarding that one specific topic.

3ibid.

4the 'GC' is a dead entity (as I have been told by you on numerous occasions) and there is no need to bring it into these deliberations, unless you want all 'GC decisions' to go under the 'magnifying-glass'?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:09:28 PM by sargas » Report to moderator   Logged
JamJulLison
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 04:25:01 PM »

Quote
a war that was supported and sanctioned by PMI. (you were even on Dadds side with that one)


But it was never personal between us and Raph.  Yes we supported it. But as you recall it it caused a lot of friction among us in PMI too.  I was merely pointing out the differences of why they were at war and why we are at war with IMG now.  The circumstances that caused it are much different.

Quote
so was I until you decided I was taking too long with my investigation regarding that one specific topic.

From my point of view it looked like you were just trying to delay things and put them on hold. I felt like nothing was getting done and it even looked like to me you supported what happened.  I felt betrayed and decided to do something to get things moving forward then sit at a standstill.  I only took out 1 of your stations when I could have taken out 3-4 in that time period.  It was because of our past friendship that I didn't.  I was in the wrong there though and I did pay you compensation and I did get some of the marines back. So I consider that matter closed. All I want with you is to repair our damaged friendship and to move forward.


Quote
the 'GC' is a dead entity (as I have been told by you on numerous occasions) and there is no need to bring it into these deliberations, unless you want all 'GC decisions' to go under the 'magnifying-glass'?


It is dead because of the actions of Dadds.  It was because of his betrayal of ITO just after he decided to turn on TGE.  All over a matter of opinion. Though to us it looks like he was just looking for an excuse to go to war.  Jake was informed of all this but bought into everything Dadds was telling him.  He supported Dadds in his war against TGE and ITO. He even carried out attack attempts at us.  An apology is a small thing to ask for considering all this.  I only brought up the GC because it existed up until the point that the betrayal occurred. The death of the GC does have some relevance here because it proves ITO and IMG were officially allies until that point.
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 05:23:31 PM »

Yes, the trust issue with Jake/Nero would be less a concern if he were to publicly denounce Dadds' war as frivolous and unreasonable/unjust and say that he personally condemns his own actions in support of it as unjust.

Regardless, the fact that he joined SPQNR (making him protected under United Corporations' charter from UC corp attacks) convinced me/ITO to reserve the right to retaliatory strike(s) against Jake/Nero if and when we get the chance. Jake/Nero has agreed not to flee in that event. He has also apologized for the losses(only) incurred from his participation in IMG's war.

Because of this ITO will remain officially outside the United Corporations(signature removed from the charter) until it's charter is amended to allow such 'grandfathered' retaliatory strikes, or we decide we're 'square' with Jake/Nero etc..

However, my/our commitment to the UC charter agreements and their intended spirit of co-operation and non-aggression will otherwise remain firm. I want to re-assure the UC corporations that we will not interfere in operations of UC corps and uphold our agreements other than retaliation against Jake/Nero.

It is my belief that this is the most honorable thing to do to avoid letting injustice stand without breaking our word or eroding the integrity of the UC and it's agreements.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 08:26:50 PM by JoolzVern » Report to moderator   Logged

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raphael
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 08:54:06 PM »

Yes, he locked it right away. LOL Anyway, Nero, thanks for letting me know. I will continue targeting IMG. 1

Newer players like Rostin will never know the extent of Dadds' and Jake's "damage" to other corps, simply because they weren't there since the beginning, and not everything is recorded in the forum. I, too, wanted a formal apology from Nero but unexpected lobbying from a couple of my former SSS members made me very slightly adjust my demands. At least Nero said that he won't attack SSS anymore. Now regarding other corps, I side with TGE and ITO on this one. Nero should at least post something about them. After all, he did more attacks that Dadds ever did. LOL
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 02:18:21 AM »

You guys will have to forgive a newbie like me for asking stupid questions, but I have read a lot of the forums... and they are just FULL of hostility towards a certain Raphael. I know that Joolz has a forum post titled "ITO Stance @ Raph," the first sentence of which reads "Grand Admiral "Fancy-Pants" Raphael can choke on his childish nonsense." You can kind of guess the rest from there. There was a lot of that going around for a long time, and then it all stops. Is it because Raph received sufficient "justice" for his attacks on ITO? Or is it because he obliterated all comers, drove Jazzbob and Dadds from the game as far as I can tell, and generally proved that opposing him was a recipe for destruction?

And yet, there's all this vitriol against Jake... which has only suddenly emerged now that he has left IMG and joined SPQNR.

Joolz: Is it really "justice" for Jake's attacks that are the heart of this matter? Are you telling me that Jake did more damage to ITO than Raph did? Of course not. Are you telling me that ITO successfully had retribution against Raph? Of course not. You could never touch Raph, so conveniently this talk of "justice" and "pirates" evaporates. Jake tried to pay you reparations and you sent the money back.

Jake is now Nero, he has come to SPQNR looking for a clean start. Do the right thing here and put your conflict with Jake to rest, please. There is no more Jake, there is only Nero, a miner... and a Senator of New Rome.

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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 03:56:25 AM »

You guys will have to forgive a newbie like me for asking stupid questions, but I have read a lot of the forums... and they are just FULL of hostility towards a certain Raphael. I know that Joolz has a forum post titled "ITO Stance @ Raph," the first sentence of which reads "Grand Admiral "Fancy-Pants" Raphael can choke on his childish nonsense." You can kind of guess the rest from there. There was a lot of that going around for a long time, and then it all stops. Is it because Raph received sufficient "justice" for his attacks on ITO? Or is it because he obliterated all comers, drove Jazzbob and Dadds from the game as far as I can tell, and generally proved that opposing him was a recipe for destruction?

And yet, there's all this vitriol against Jake... which has only suddenly emerged now that he has left IMG and joined SPQNR.

Joolz: Is it really "justice" for Jake's attacks that are the heart of this matter? Are you telling me that Jake did more damage to ITO than Raph did? Of course not. Are you telling me that ITO successfully had retribution against Raph? Of course not. You could never touch Raph, so conveniently this talk of "justice" and "pirates" evaporates. Jake tried to pay you reparations and you sent the money back.

Jake is now Nero, he has come to SPQNR looking for a clean start. Do the right thing here and put your conflict with Jake to rest, please. There is no more Jake, there is only Nero, a miner... and a Senator of New Rome.




The stuff when we was against Raph is from the days of the now dead GC.  Early on Dadds had issues with Raph when he was on the rise.  He attacked anyone he felt like attacking and began to looking like a terrorist. After much discussion the GC declared Raph an outlaw. ITO was one of the later members to join the GC prior to it dieing.   These days while some of us may not like Raph much, we don't got any personal issues with him. Hell the only one that ever did was Dadds. 

As for Jake/Nero.  A name change doesn't mean his past changes. His past is his past and it will always remain.  I will be pming Jake as soon as SirEmi unblocks him for me.  I plan on discussing this with Jake in the game itself since he doesn't seem to be coming on here.  But fact is name change or not, he needs to be held accountable for his actions.  A public apology is a small thing to ask for considering everything that has happened.
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raphael
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 08:44:38 AM »

You guys will have to forgive a newbie like me for asking stupid questions, but I have read a lot of the forums... and they are just FULL of hostility towards a certain Raphael. I know that Joolz has a forum post titled "ITO Stance @ Raph," the first sentence of which reads "Grand Admiral "Fancy-Pants" Raphael can choke on his childish nonsense." You can kind of guess the rest from there. There was a lot of that going around for a long time, and then it all stops. Is it because Raph received sufficient "justice" for his attacks on ITO? Or is it because he obliterated all comers, drove Jazzbob and Dadds from the game as far as I can tell, and generally proved that opposing him was a recipe for destruction?

And yet, there's all this vitriol against Jake... which has only suddenly emerged now that he has left IMG and joined SPQNR.

Joolz: Is it really "justice" for Jake's attacks that are the heart of this matter? Are you telling me that Jake did more damage to ITO than Raph did? Of course not. Are you telling me that ITO successfully had retribution against Raph? Of course not. You could never touch Raph, so conveniently this talk of "justice" and "pirates" evaporates. Jake tried to pay you reparations and you sent the money back.

Jake is now Nero, he has come to SPQNR looking for a clean start. Do the right thing here and put your conflict with Jake to rest, please. There is no more Jake, there is only Nero, a miner... and a Senator of New Rome.

That's mostly (not all) true but the only difference with me and Jake is that I never asked to left alone. They can all attack me again, and the war will resume. But they don't want that, and I feel that I have nothing more to prove so everyone might as well drop it.. But in Jake's case, he asked to be left alone, and he wants peace. So if he was the one who asked for it in the first place, it's really up to his enemies if they will accept it or not. 1
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 09:28:55 AM »


That's mostly (not all) true but the only difference with me and Jake is that I never asked to left alone. They can all attack me again, and the war will resume. But they don't want that, and I feel that I have nothing more to prove so everyone might as well drop it.. But in Jake's case, he asked to be left alone, and he wants peace. So if he was the one who asked for it in the first place, it's really up to his enemies if they will accept it or not. 1

Raph, you didn't need to ask to be left alone, because you're strong enough to obliterate them. There is lots of talk of justice... JJL says "His past is his past and it will always remain," and "he needs to be held accountable for his actions," as if those things are moral principles, but the fact that he and Joolz do not apply them to you means they're just scared of you. They're not making an ethical stand, they're "making a stand" against a convenient scapegoat.

... not to say that an attack on Raph would be ethical OR sane. Even if you weren't invincible, Raph, you've been an honorable leader and helped a lot of newbies like myself, which would mean your past is not as important as your future. I know you don't care, but just wanted to clarify my stance on your past "crimes."  13


The stuff when we was against Raph is from the days of the now dead GC.  Early on Dadds had issues with Raph when he was on the rise.  He attacked anyone he felt like attacking and began to looking like a terrorist. After much discussion the GC declared Raph an outlaw. ITO was one of the later members to join the GC prior to it dieing.   These days while some of us may not like Raph much, we don't got any personal issues with him. Hell the only one that ever did was Dadds. 


You're just making excuses and re-writing history for your own convenience. It only takes someone with eyes to see all the insults and proclamations about Raph's destruction from all of you guys back in the day. You don't have any personal issue with him because if you did, it would lead to your destruction. Meanwhile, a week ago your stance on Jake was this: "Jake seems to be the only one occasionally being a nuisance. I rarely see him myself." But suddenly he joins SPQNR and he's public enemy number one? Please.

I should mention, I don't blame you for dropping it against Raph, that was the right thing to do, even if he didn't have almost 2 billion power. Holding grudges and perpetuating hostilities does nothing for anyone in this game. I'm asking you and Joolz to afford SPQRN the courtesy of not attempting to intervene in our recruiting. I know you, JJL, have already agreed to leave us alone because of the UC Charter (thanks for that, by the way), so this is really directed at Joolz. I know I can't (and wouldn't try to) control your thoughts on the matter, but it's your actions going forward that are relevant to all.
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raphael
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2014, 10:40:34 AM »


That's mostly (not all) true but the only difference with me and Jake is that I never asked to left alone. They can all attack me again, and the war will resume. But they don't want that, and I feel that I have nothing more to prove so everyone might as well drop it.. But in Jake's case, he asked to be left alone, and he wants peace. So if he was the one who asked for it in the first place, it's really up to his enemies if they will accept it or not. 1

Raph, you didn't need to ask to be left alone, because you're strong enough to obliterate them. There is lots of talk of justice... JJL says "His past is his past and it will always remain," and "he needs to be held accountable for his actions," as if those things are moral principles, but the fact that he and Joolz do not apply them to you means they're just scared of you. They're not making an ethical stand, they're "making a stand" against a convenient scapegoat.

I'm too sleepy to post anything sensible right now, so I might do it later. LOL But whatever TGE and ITO does about Jake and only Jake (no other SPQNR members involved), I will stay out of it. Jake, and in effect IMG, needs to pay in full.. 1  sleep sleep1 sleep sleep1

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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2014, 11:39:18 AM »

"As for Jake/Nero.  A name change doesn't mean his past changes. His past is his past and it will always remain."

So tell us Emperor... Should we bring your past as a pirate into the equation then?
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2014, 12:02:53 PM »

So your assuming the reason I decided to leave Raph alone was because of his power?  Let me tell you this. That had nothing to do with it. Yes we all shared our little insults back then.  Even now some of us don't like or trust raph that much.  That includes myself.  But just because you don't like someone isn't a good enough reason to go to war. I have heard he doesn't care much for me either but so far he hasn't come after me.  Fact is we have no real reason to fight anymore. Yeah we do argue a bit and speak our minds a bit on here to each other. But that is what happens when 2 experienced players aren't huge fans of each other and aren't afraid to speak their mind.  Hell from the looks of it I am one of the few on here that isn't afraid to speak their mind.

As for jake only occasionally a nuisance.  That is but he also supported Dadds actions. Even though he was more of a nuisance then anything he still needs to be held accountable for his actions. From Raph's point of view Dadds has mostly just been a nuisance. Especially in recent times.  Would you expect him to just let everything go if you decided you wanted to take him in?  Fact is by going along with Dadds on this he was just as guilty betraying his allies as Dadds was. ITO in particular deserved better then to have that happen.  Where is the justice in just letting him walk away just because he suddenly decided he doesn't want to fight anymore.   Let me ask you this.  Say a shoplifter steals a bunch of stuff and gets caught. They break down to the cops and say "I am so sorry. I won't do it again.  I am a changed man."   What would your reaction be if the cops just let this guy go?  Fact is Dadds and those who supported him not only betrayed an ally but also committed treason against a fellow member of the GC.  Because this was the last of the GC, this in turn killed it so there was no one to really follow up on that matter officially.  But it is still treason none the less.  Treason itself is a crime.  I am not asking for something outrageous here.  Getting off with an apology is actually a small price to pay after what was done. 


As for my past.  I have never hid from my past as a pirate.  I have never tried to deny it, I have never asked to just be given a complete do over.   I accept it and I face it. To this day many people still don't trust me because of it. But that is my own fault.  Chances are I am going to have to keep proving to people over and over again that they can trust me.  That is the price I must pay for my past. 
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2014, 02:43:16 PM »

Actually Irredrache I haven't compared notes or kept a specific tally but I would say that most definitely Raph has done FAR less damage than Jake. I recall Raph taking out some labs and stuff after we backed Dadds/Jam on his being still considered an outlaw. With the GC dissolved and UC formed, there is no 'outlaw status' any longer.

The UC in my estimation strives to be just and honorable, to preserve justice and peace, not to force justice for past events. With the GC gone and no UC obligation to mess with him Raph has nothing to prove and has stopped attacking and so we at ITO have him listed as being under a 'un-official cease-fire'. If we got strong enough that would probably change. For now *his transgressions* are unpunished, as are Jake's for the most part.

Jake didn't just attack us, he did so out of indifference or support of an *unjust war* which is why I didn't want to let him off so easy. He and Rostin both appear to think Jake/Nero's past actions were reasonable because he was just blindly loyal to a totalitarian. I think that's a good reason to say both of you have a busted moral compass and Jake stays on the hitlist.

But you misunderstand what this is really about for ITO-

The issue at hand is that Rostin(not Jake) initially asked for clemency regarding Jake...then he effectively made our decision on the matter moot. Either we let him off easy or leave the UC or just violate the agreements outright.

This comes off as abusing the UC to shelter a war criminal. There's nothing against this in the UC rules but using it to skirt justice strengthens my resolve to carry out justice if we can. It also means ITO can't be in the UC until we do or the charter is amended. I aim to leave him on our hitlist until he experiences the sort of setbacks he inflicted on us, especially if he won't admit that his/Dadds' attacks were unjust. This will most likely consist of at least 2-3 good hits where his operations are significantly looted, destroyed, and/or ships jumped.

As for SPQNR and the UC:
The character of both SPQNR and the UC is tarnished in my view by using the UC charter to protect a war criminal(for me IMG=Nazis and Jake=top general) who's not even apologized for WRONG-doing. He apologized for our 'losses' but that doesn't make up for the fact it was just for my telling Dadds to 'calm down'. I can't just forgive that if he has no actual remorse for that.

Irredrache, if I ran into your bathroom and stole your toilet paper just before you're about to wipe, would paying you fifty cents back for the tp be enough for you to forgive that?

See it's not the tp/QP that is the issue- it's that the act was offensively wrong. For me Jake's actions aren't just about what was taken, but the fact that it was for no good reason other than to support Dadds' malicious totalitarianism. So no, I'm sorry but 25QP and a 'sorry for your loss' just won't cut it.
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