jake1976/nero

[JamJulLison]

Well we sure know who the jingoists are, don't we?

Not really. Joolz is doing what he feels is best.  He isn't attacking him because he is an outsider.  Him being an outsider had nothing to do with my own actions as well.  It can't be sure that is the reason why members of other corps acted the way they did towards us over this either.  Yes I did google it too. lol

[Raptor]

I appreciate Jake's apology and I'm glad that he's pledged to do as he has.

Sorry if it seems unreasonable but we'll still hit him a few times if we can. I don't intend to be overly vengeful, but vengeance will be ours!  

I feel like I owe it to my current and former players who were hit by Jake/Nero simply for me basically saying "calm down Dadds" lol.

Also, I sincerely apologize to the members of SPQNR for any distress or inconvenience this has caused.

Sorry Joolz, but for now, it stops here. You've accepted the apology, now let it rest.

All other corp leaders can live with Nero's new status, I ask you do too.

I'm not out to re-escalate this situation, we all want peace, but I will speak my mind, and I think you're pushing it now. You asked Rostin to put a motion to the UC to add something to its charter. That motion is under serious consideration by the Senate of New Rome (we'll never vote on something in the UC without an internal discussion first), and we've added some useful points and clarifications, not just for this case, but for future use as well should a similar situation arise where ancient issues may need to be settled without affecting any player's new corp. I strongly recommend you await the outcome of this process first. It will probably establish a framework for settling any and all beef that may still exist between the two of you, without the Senate having to do what's right and defend its members.

Please don't mistake this for a threat, it's not my place to declare war, that power lies exclusively with the Senate. As its administrative biatch, I'm unhappy at how this issue dominates SPQNR's agenda. We cannot allow or afford to let that situation to continue indefinitely. The motion will be put up for an internal vote in the coming days, so by the weekend the UC should have something to consider itself. Do hold your fire until at least then.

[nero]

raptor leave joolz alone me and joolz have a deal and iam keeping my word on this.

[Raptor]

Fine, all the better if youse have things sorted out in private. Like I said: I'm not trying to re-escalate things here, but both of you would've done well to explain that a little clearer.

Having said that, no individual agreement takes away from the fact that Joolz asked for a change to the UC charter, so common courtesy would demand awaiting a decision on that. You can't ask more than a dozen people to consider how to deal with these things in the future, then blame them for asking to await the outcome of that process.

[Raptor]

Original post in this thread now modified to reflect the deal between Joolz and Nero. That settles this case then.

In general terms, a modification to UC rules on how to deal with old grudges would still be useful. Let's complete that process too.

*Vulcan salute*

[Irredrache]

Well we sure know who the jingoists are, don't we?

I, too, have learned something new today. Excellent word choice, Sargas, that just about sums it up.

It's fortunate for all parties involved (including, especially, SPQNR) that Nero has so much honor.

[Raptor]

Yes. Now be a good Consul, and put THIS image <img]http://i.imgur.com/YAsD6rq.jpg[/img]   (with proper opening tag) in your profile :p

[JamJulLison]

I appreciate Jake's apology and I'm glad that he's pledged to do as he has.

Sorry if it seems unreasonable but we'll still hit him a few times if we can. I don't intend to be overly vengeful, but vengeance will be ours!  

I feel like I owe it to my current and former players who were hit by Jake/Nero simply for me basically saying "calm down Dadds" lol.

Also, I sincerely apologize to the members of SPQNR for any distress or inconvenience this has caused.

Sorry Joolz, but for now, it stops here. You've accepted the apology, now let it rest.

All other corp leaders can live with Nero's new status, I ask you do too.

I'm not out to re-escalate this situation, we all want peace, but I will speak my mind, and I think you're pushing it now. You asked Rostin to put a motion to the UC to add something to its charter. That motion is under serious consideration by the Senate of New Rome (we'll never vote on something in the UC without an internal discussion first), and we've added some useful points and clarifications, not just for this case, but for future use as well should a similar situation arise where ancient issues may need to be settled without affecting any player's new corp. I strongly recommend you await the outcome of this process first. It will probably establish a framework for settling any and all beef that may still exist between the two of you, without the Senate having to do what's right and defend its members.

Please don't mistake this for a threat, it's not my place to declare war, that power lies exclusively with the Senate. As its administrative biatch, I'm unhappy at how this issue dominates SPQNR's agenda. We cannot allow or afford to let that situation to continue indefinitely. The motion will be put up for an internal vote in the coming days, so by the weekend the UC should have something to consider itself. Do hold your fire until at least then.

From what both Joolz and Rostin have told me, this amendment suggestion was already decided upon and was going to be suggested. This was as of a few days ago actually.  I have been waiting all weekend to see the suggestion go up but now I see why it hasn't.  Rostin had us believe your minds had already been made up on it.  Let me say this, if Rostin doesn't make the suggestion I will make it myself.  It could very well be a thing that passes even without your corp's approval of us. One way or another this suggestion will be suggested.  Because something needs to be done to prevent this sort of situation from happening again.

[Raptor]

I certainly see how it could be passed without SPQNR approval. Such is democracy. However, the broader the support for a blanket agreement, the better, and I ask, therefore, for a little more patience for us to finalise our additions, which we believe will prevent a) a counter-productive solution and b) one full of loopholes.

And please do accept our apologies for the lack of communication on this subject, it's something we'll work on for the future. 

[Rostin]

I've been offline for the most part the last several days. No chance to get anything drafted up. As long as you fully flesh everything out I have no problem with you proposing it JJL, I just ask that you leave it open for votes until I can start playing regularly again and leave it malleable at first so we can shape it however we all want in the UC

[Irredrache]

From what both Joolz and Rostin have told me, this amendment suggestion was already decided upon and was going to be suggested. This was as of a few days ago actually.  I have been waiting all weekend to see the suggestion go up but now I see why it hasn't.  Rostin had us believe your minds had already been made up on it.  Let me say this, if Rostin doesn't make the suggestion I will make it myself.  It could very well be a thing that passes even without your corp's approval of us. One way or another this suggestion will be suggested.  Because something needs to be done to prevent this sort of situation from happening again.

The problem with such an amendment is that there are dozens of possible loopholes, so rushing to pass it would probably cause more harm than good. Rushing to pass it to appease someone who left the UC of their own volition because of a desire to perpetrate violence on a player within one of the member corporations seems like a mistake to me. If it's your desire to draft this amendment yourself, JJL, I ask only that you don't rush it. To that end, I would happily send you the list we've compiled of potential loopholes and other things that would need to be addressed by such an amendment. I think it's a pretty comprehensive list of points to be addressed, and would serve you well as a guide in drafting such a document.

[JamJulLison]

From what both Joolz and Rostin have told me, this amendment suggestion was already decided upon and was going to be suggested. This was as of a few days ago actually.  I have been waiting all weekend to see the suggestion go up but now I see why it hasn't.  Rostin had us believe your minds had already been made up on it.  Let me say this, if Rostin doesn't make the suggestion I will make it myself.  It could very well be a thing that passes even without your corp's approval of us. One way or another this suggestion will be suggested.  Because something needs to be done to prevent this sort of situation from happening again.

The problem with such an amendment is that there are dozens of possible loopholes, so rushing to pass it would probably cause more harm than good. Rushing to pass it to appease someone who left the UC of their own volition because of a desire to perpetrate violence on a player within one of the member corporations seems like a mistake to me. If it's your desire to draft this amendment yourself, JJL, I ask only that you don't rush it. To that end, I would happily send you the list we've compiled of potential loopholes and other things that would need to be addressed by such an amendment. I think it's a pretty comprehensive list of points to be addressed, and would serve you well as a guide in drafting such a document.

I got no issue with letting you make the suggestion. I understand wanting it to be loophole free. I just ask you hurry it along. From my standpoint it looks like you guys might just be trying to screw around both joolz and myself. I am not saying you are. I am trying to have faith your not.  But you must understand how it might look that way from my point of view.  As for doing to appease Joolz.  His aggression towards Jake isn't why he left.  It was because of how Rostin handled the entire situation.  First Rostin asked us not to hit Jake.  Both Joolz and myself felt like Jake shouldn't just get off so easily for his past actions. Rostin asked me in a PM if Jake joined his corp if we would attack him.  I told him know cause the UC prevents it.  The next day though Jake had changed his name and formed his own corp. More discussion went on. Our position was unchanged. Then Rostin takes him in.  To both joolz and myself it looked like Rostin was taking advantage of the GC charter to protect a known enemy of ours and let him get off without any consequences for his past actions.   To me it felt like Rostin only asked us not to hit jake out of courtesy and that he was going to insure that we would not be able to hit jake regardless. Making our opinions of the entire thing moot.   Joolz didn't like seeing the UC charter being used in such a way.  He felt like both Rostin and Jake were abusing the charter.   He stuck by his conviction and left because he felt like the UC didn't have the integrity he felt the members of the UC should have.  I do respect him for it and sticking to his guns on this.  The only reason I didn't quit the UC myself is because I wanted the UC and I still want it. I want to see things work.  I don't want to see a repeat of this situation though. Which is why some sort of amendment is needed.   I am also  hoping after this is all behind us, we can maybe accept ITO back into the UC. That is if Joolz wants to come back.

[Irredrache]

I got no issue with letting you make the suggestion. I understand wanting it to be loophole free. I just ask you hurry it along. From my standpoint it looks like you guys might just be trying to screw around both joolz and myself. I am not saying you are. I am trying to have faith your not.  But you must understand how it might look that way from my point of view.  As for doing to appease Joolz.  His aggression towards Jake isn't why he left.  It was because of how Rostin handled the entire situation.  First Rostin asked us not to hit Jake.  Both Joolz and myself felt like Jake shouldn't just get off so easily for his past actions. Rostin asked me in a PM if Jake joined his corp if we would attack him.  I told him know cause the UC prevents it.  The next day though Jake had changed his name and formed his own corp. More discussion went on. Our position was unchanged. Then Rostin takes him in.  To both joolz and myself it looked like Rostin was taking advantage of the GC charter to protect a known enemy of ours and let him get off without any consequences for his past actions.   To me it felt like Rostin only asked us not to hit jake out of courtesy and that he was going to insure that we would not be able to hit jake regardless. Making our opinions of the entire thing moot.   Joolz didn't like seeing the UC charter being used in such a way.  He felt like both Rostin and Jake were abusing the charter.   He stuck by his conviction and left because he felt like the UC didn't have the integrity he felt the members of the UC should have.  I do respect him for it and sticking to his guns on this.  The only reason I didn't quit the UC myself is because I wanted the UC and I still want it. I want to see things work.  I don't want to see a repeat of this situation though. Which is why some sort of amendment is needed.   I am also  hoping after this is all behind us, we can maybe accept ITO back into the UC. That is if Joolz wants to come back.

I'm not looking to rehash the whole thing. We'll never agree on who is at fault for what, but thankfully it's pretty much all been ironed out peacefully. As for the amendment itself, Rostin is extremely busy with school. As the other Consul of SPQNR I would offer to draft an amendment instead, but I'm also very busy at the moment, applying to PhD programs. I can assure you that we're just two people with extremely busy lives. Nobody is jerking anybody around, and if anything, we'd all rather see this debacle over and done with as soon as possible.

It's my personal opinion that such an amendment won't ever be able to satisfactorily address all my concerns, and I'd rather just see Nero and Joolz play out Joolz's little revenge fantasy, and then going forward strictly forbid any Corp-on-Corp aggression for UC members. Again, I'll happily forward you the 9 or 10 points of concern that we came up with regarding any sort of "mutual private war" amendment... if you or Rostin can address them all successfully, the amendment would absolutely have my vote. If you'd like Rostin to do it, please have patience.

[JamJulLison]

I got no issue with letting you make the suggestion. I understand wanting it to be loophole free. I just ask you hurry it along. From my standpoint it looks like you guys might just be trying to screw around both joolz and myself. I am not saying you are. I am trying to have faith your not.  But you must understand how it might look that way from my point of view.  As for doing to appease Joolz.  His aggression towards Jake isn't why he left.  It was because of how Rostin handled the entire situation.  First Rostin asked us not to hit Jake.  Both Joolz and myself felt like Jake shouldn't just get off so easily for his past actions. Rostin asked me in a PM if Jake joined his corp if we would attack him.  I told him know cause the UC prevents it.  The next day though Jake had changed his name and formed his own corp. More discussion went on. Our position was unchanged. Then Rostin takes him in.  To both joolz and myself it looked like Rostin was taking advantage of the GC charter to protect a known enemy of ours and let him get off without any consequences for his past actions.   To me it felt like Rostin only asked us not to hit jake out of courtesy and that he was going to insure that we would not be able to hit jake regardless. Making our opinions of the entire thing moot.   Joolz didn't like seeing the UC charter being used in such a way.  He felt like both Rostin and Jake were abusing the charter.   He stuck by his conviction and left because he felt like the UC didn't have the integrity he felt the members of the UC should have.  I do respect him for it and sticking to his guns on this.  The only reason I didn't quit the UC myself is because I wanted the UC and I still want it. I want to see things work.  I don't want to see a repeat of this situation though. Which is why some sort of amendment is needed.   I am also  hoping after this is all behind us, we can maybe accept ITO back into the UC. That is if Joolz wants to come back.

I'm not looking to rehash the whole thing. We'll never agree on who is at fault for what, but thankfully it's pretty much all been ironed out peacefully. As for the amendment itself, Rostin is extremely busy with school. As the other Consul of SPQNR I would offer to draft an amendment instead, but I'm also very busy at the moment, applying to PhD programs. I can assure you that we're just two people with extremely busy lives. Nobody is jerking anybody around, and if anything, we'd all rather see this debacle over and done with as soon as possible.

It's my personal opinion that such an amendment won't ever be able to satisfactorily address all my concerns, and I'd rather just see Nero and Joolz play out Joolz's little revenge fantasy, and then going forward strictly forbid any Corp-on-Corp aggression for UC members. Again, I'll happily forward you the 9 or 10 points of concern that we came up with regarding any sort of "mutual private war" amendment... if you or Rostin can address them all successfully, the amendment would absolutely have my vote. If you'd like Rostin to do it, please have patience.

Feel free to send them to me.  To be honest I only know the gist of what has been talked about with this thing.  It could be a thing where we have to think of something else entirely. We need to hash out a solution though.

[Rostin]

You can't rush perfection Jam... ;)
And if you keep going on about how you think we're just "screw[ing] around you and Joolz" then we'll never be able to cooperate with each other.
I'm being totally transparent, I am the least deceitful person in this game, so relax. You'll get your proposal when I get this d**n paper done...