Probes

[JamJulLison]

I have been thinking about it for a while and I have come to the conclusion that this game needs a way to find people, planets and resources better.  Then I thought why not probes. There would of course be some limitations to probes.

-The Range of a probe is equal to that of your Navigation Computer. So for those with VIP that would be 16 ly of where they are being launched.
-What a probe can detect, it's speed and fuel usage is based on it's MK level.
-The ship that launches them must remain in the same system/area of deep space in order to recieve reports from the probes that they launch.
-There is a level cap.
-Once a pod finishes it's mission it destroys itself by flying into whatever system it is in's sun.


Detection Abilities

MK 1: Can detect the number of planets, moons and asteroid belts in a Solar System.

MK 2: Can detect ships/space stations in a system and what planet/moon/asteroid belt they are at.

MK 3: Can detect the power levels of ships/space stations of ships/space stations they detect.

MK 4: Can detect modules on planets/moons/asteroid belts as well as the actual size of ships and space station.

MK 5: Can detect the overall power level of the modules on a planet/moon/asteroid belt.

MK 6: Can detect what resources a planet/moon/asteroid belt has. Can also detect what modules a ship/space station has but not their MK level.

MK 7: Can detect the MK level of modules on a planet/moon/astroid belt.

MK 8: Can detect the MK level of the modules on a space station.

MK 9: Can detect the MK level of the modules on a ship.

MK 10: Can detect how close a system's sun is to going supernova.



This idea may or may not need some fine tuning. But for the most part it looks fine to me. How much fuel it should cost and how much space it should take up in a cargo bay is up to Emi to decide. Obviously though it should use up less fuel then a ship would making jumps and with as small as these are, I don't see any reason why they should take up more then 100 space. Probes are small after all. Obviously we would have to build these ourselves though but still.  I am sure these could benefit a lot of people.  From people hunting others down to others just looking for more resources out there without having to jump around from system to system, planet to planet wasting fuel and time.

[Aysle]

I think this would be really handy...

One thing though, I agree the fuel cost should be low. But the build cost should be high. That way people aren't building them by the 100s.
The probe should be slow to explore also, not a big engine on probes usually. This would make the ship it was launched from vulnerable to attack while it waits for the report. As such should only be able to launch while in orbit of a planet and cant move (the signal would be beamed back to that static location).

[JamJulLison]

I think this would be really handy...

One thing though, I agree the fuel cost should be low. But the build cost should be high. That way people aren't building them by the 100s.
The probe should be slow to explore also, not a big engine on probes usually. This would make the ship it was launched from vulnerable to attack while it waits for the report. As such should only be able to launch while in orbit of a planet and cant move (the signal would be beamed back to that static location).

To be able to launch them from a single planet and limit them to only being sent to the system you are in would kinda make them pointless though. After all you could just as easily search the system yourself in the time it would take probe a system. Considering how in today's world we can send out probes that can keep travel outside our Solar System and beyond even, I see no reason why in the time when this game would take place that they can't be sent further out. Limited it to 16 ly maximum with VIP isn't unrealistic. I do agree they should be slow. But each advanced level should increase it and overall and by MK 10 would have to be more time efficient then having searching all of the systems yourself with 1 ship. Granted those with really high level FTL and wormhole drives wouldn't have a problem with it anyways, the fuel cost for such engines would still be high compared to the probes.  As for the price. While not too cheap, they shouldn't be too expensive either to make. Especially since Emi is talking about before long people won't be able to buy resources from Sol anymore.  Mass producing anything from just mining can take quite a while. Making it require too rare of materials or too high of an amount of even cheaper ones, could make producing these unproductive.  Also I can't see why probes would need to be made of too rare of materials.  As for worries of people mass producing them. There could perhaps be some sort of module that could be made to put on ships, planets and space stations that can detect these when they pass by and if whatever has weapons on it, it could have a chance of automatically destroying these if spotted. Though I would think with powerful enough sensors on these visiting each of the planets would be unnecessary for the probes.  Just a flyby should be enough. As for burning of the fuel itself. Keep in mind once in space, an object will keep going in a single direction once it has the momentum to go that way. Only thing to stop it's movements is either by slight course correction by an on board engine or from the gravity of another celestial object in space. Or if something happens to bump it.  So not much fuel is needed to keep it going where it needs other then for occasional course corrects. Perhaps there can be minor chances of random object bumping into a probe and destroying. Which requires an upgraded version of the probe past it's basic 10. Like maybe after capping them out an additional tech for advanced probes that contain light shielding so they won't have a random chance of being destroyed by a micro meteor or something like that. Of course these kinds of probes would cost more to build then basic probes. Each MK having a slightly stronger shield. That way if say a module was made for detecting these that allowed a ship or station with a weapon to blow it up, they have a better chance at surviving the shot. Since the probes would be as small as they are, we could say a ship only has 1 chance at shooting it down as it flies by.

Those are just some ideas.  I think before going into too many extra things for probes, at least the basic probes should be added in.  Something has to be done for better searching.  As it stands right now finding someone is like finding a needle in a hay stack.  the Wormhole Detector at best just serves as an early warning device or seeing if there happens to be someone set to jump in or out of a system.  That right there is only slightly useful.  I think the probes should also be able to detect what ships are sitting in safe zones. I can't see any reason why it couldn't be able to do that.  Also it would be interesting to see how many ships are sitting inactive in the safe zone in Sol. lol

[Aysle]

I think this would be really handy...

One thing though, I agree the fuel cost should be low. But the build cost should be high. That way people aren't building them by the 100s.
The probe should be slow to explore also, not a big engine on probes usually. This would make the ship it was launched from vulnerable to attack while it waits for the report. As such should only be able to launch while in orbit of a planet and cant move (the signal would be beamed back to that static location).

To be able to launch them from a single planet and limit them to only being sent to the system you are in would kinda make them pointless though. After all you could just as easily search the system yourself in the time it would take probe a system. Considering how in today's world we can send out probes that can keep travel outside our Solar System and beyond even, I see no reason why in the time when this game would take place that they can't be sent further out. Limited it to 16 ly maximum with VIP isn't unrealistic. I do agree they should be slow. But each advanced level should increase it and overall and by MK 10 would have to be more time efficient then having searching all of the systems yourself with 1 ship. Granted those with really high level FTL and wormhole drives wouldn't have a problem with it anyways, the fuel cost for such engines would still be high compared to the probes.  As for the price. While not too cheap, they shouldn't be too expensive either to make. Especially since Emi is talking about before long people won't be able to buy resources from Sol anymore.  Mass producing anything from just mining can take quite a while. Making it require too rare of materials or too high of an amount of even cheaper ones, could make producing these unproductive.  Also I can't see why probes would need to be made of too rare of materials.  As for worries of people mass producing them. There could perhaps be some sort of module that could be made to put on ships, planets and space stations that can detect these when they pass by and if whatever has weapons on it, it could have a chance of automatically destroying these if spotted. Though I would think with powerful enough sensors on these visiting each of the planets would be unnecessary for the probes.  Just a flyby should be enough. As for burning of the fuel itself. Keep in mind once in space, an object will keep going in a single direction once it has the momentum to go that way. Only thing to stop it's movements is either by slight course correction by an on board engine or from the gravity of another celestial object in space. Or if something happens to bump it.  So not much fuel is needed to keep it going where it needs other then for occasional course corrects. Perhaps there can be minor chances of random object bumping into a probe and destroying. Which requires an upgraded version of the probe past it's basic 10. Like maybe after capping them out an additional tech for advanced probes that contain light shielding so they won't have a random chance of being destroyed by a micro meteor or something like that. Of course these kinds of probes would cost more to build then basic probes. Each MK having a slightly stronger shield. That way if say a module was made for detecting these that allowed a ship or station with a weapon to blow it up, they have a better chance at surviving the shot. Since the probes would be as small as they are, we could say a ship only has 1 chance at shooting it down as it flies by.

Those are just some ideas.  I think before going into too many extra things for probes, at least the basic probes should be added in.  Something has to be done for better searching.  As it stands right now finding someone is like finding a needle in a hay stack.  the Wormhole Detector at best just serves as an early warning device or seeing if there happens to be someone set to jump in or out of a system.  That right there is only slightly useful.  I think the probes should also be able to detect what ships are sitting in safe zones. I can't see any reason why it couldn't be able to do that.  Also it would be interesting to see how many ships are sitting inactive in the safe zone in Sol. lol

Im not saying the probe explores the system it is launched from. More the probe explores a general direction for say 20-50 lys stopping at systems along the way... The number of course corrections would relate to fuel on board and Mk level.

I see no problem with detecting ships in safe zones. Im just saying there should be some sort of risk to the ship that launched the probe. They cant just sit in the safe zone while the probe goes on and explores large swaths of the galaxy. Otherwise I would envision basic shuttles sitting in the safe zone sending out probes non-stop (I know I would).

And I agree with the needle in a haystack current searching method...its just blind luck right now to find someone. There needs to be a way to actually find someone you are searching for...as you said Jam, our war is pretty boring. We need some action lol.

[JamJulLison]

I think this would be really handy...

One thing though, I agree the fuel cost should be low. But the build cost should be high. That way people aren't building them by the 100s.
The probe should be slow to explore also, not a big engine on probes usually. This would make the ship it was launched from vulnerable to attack while it waits for the report. As such should only be able to launch while in orbit of a planet and cant move (the signal would be beamed back to that static location).

To be able to launch them from a single planet and limit them to only being sent to the system you are in would kinda make them pointless though. After all you could just as easily search the system yourself in the time it would take probe a system. Considering how in today's world we can send out probes that can keep travel outside our Solar System and beyond even, I see no reason why in the time when this game would take place that they can't be sent further out. Limited it to 16 ly maximum with VIP isn't unrealistic. I do agree they should be slow. But each advanced level should increase it and overall and by MK 10 would have to be more time efficient then having searching all of the systems yourself with 1 ship. Granted those with really high level FTL and wormhole drives wouldn't have a problem with it anyways, the fuel cost for such engines would still be high compared to the probes.  As for the price. While not too cheap, they shouldn't be too expensive either to make. Especially since Emi is talking about before long people won't be able to buy resources from Sol anymore.  Mass producing anything from just mining can take quite a while. Making it require too rare of materials or too high of an amount of even cheaper ones, could make producing these unproductive.  Also I can't see why probes would need to be made of too rare of materials.  As for worries of people mass producing them. There could perhaps be some sort of module that could be made to put on ships, planets and space stations that can detect these when they pass by and if whatever has weapons on it, it could have a chance of automatically destroying these if spotted. Though I would think with powerful enough sensors on these visiting each of the planets would be unnecessary for the probes.  Just a flyby should be enough. As for burning of the fuel itself. Keep in mind once in space, an object will keep going in a single direction once it has the momentum to go that way. Only thing to stop it's movements is either by slight course correction by an on board engine or from the gravity of another celestial object in space. Or if something happens to bump it.  So not much fuel is needed to keep it going where it needs other then for occasional course corrects. Perhaps there can be minor chances of random object bumping into a probe and destroying. Which requires an upgraded version of the probe past it's basic 10. Like maybe after capping them out an additional tech for advanced probes that contain light shielding so they won't have a random chance of being destroyed by a micro meteor or something like that. Of course these kinds of probes would cost more to build then basic probes. Each MK having a slightly stronger shield. That way if say a module was made for detecting these that allowed a ship or station with a weapon to blow it up, they have a better chance at surviving the shot. Since the probes would be as small as they are, we could say a ship only has 1 chance at shooting it down as it flies by.

Those are just some ideas.  I think before going into too many extra things for probes, at least the basic probes should be added in.  Something has to be done for better searching.  As it stands right now finding someone is like finding a needle in a hay stack.  the Wormhole Detector at best just serves as an early warning device or seeing if there happens to be someone set to jump in or out of a system.  That right there is only slightly useful.  I think the probes should also be able to detect what ships are sitting in safe zones. I can't see any reason why it couldn't be able to do that.  Also it would be interesting to see how many ships are sitting inactive in the safe zone in Sol. lol

Im not saying the probe explores the system it is launched from. More the probe explores a general direction for say 20-50 lys stopping at systems along the way... The number of course corrections would relate to fuel on board and Mk level.

I see no problem with detecting ships in safe zones. Im just saying there should be some sort of risk to the ship that launched the probe. They cant just sit in the safe zone while the probe goes on and explores large swaths of the galaxy. Otherwise I would envision basic shuttles sitting in the safe zone sending out probes non-stop (I know I would).

And I agree with the needle in a haystack current searching method...its just blind luck right now to find someone. There needs to be a way to actually find someone you are searching for...as you said Jam, our war is pretty boring. We need some action lol.

I see no reason why a ship shouldn't be able to sit in a single system or area of deep space and just launch them. Part of sending probes is to minimize risk to a ship. Realistically there is no reason they shouldn't be able to sit in a safe zone or deep space and launch them.  However being unable to move from the spot there are in and launch them is something that should be required. Just so the probe knows where to send back the information. A safe zone or deep space might actually be better and more realistic then that since a ship wouldn't have to worry about maintaining orbit and ending up on the other side of a planet when the a signal is sent back causing them to possible miss receiving the signal because it being blocked by the planet. I am just keeping my thinking realistic on this.  Another use for probes I am thinking of is perhaps when wormholes are added in, they could be sent through a wormhole to investigate what is on the other side and what area of space is on the other side. After all it would suck to go through a wormhole just to end up somewhere you don't want to be. lol

Something I always think back to when I am searching for someone is that scene in the beginning of Empire Strikes Back when the empire is sending out all them imperial probe droids. I think to myself, man I could use some of them right now. lol

[SirEmi]

It's a nice idea, but this can also be achieved with a carrier / mothership with scout ships that travel light and fast with scout ship optimizations.

Basically, when implemented, you could jump the carrier in the system, undock your scouting ships and send them roaming around the planetary system, exploring and transmitting the info in real time.

[JamJulLison]

It's a nice idea, but this can also be achieved with a carrier / mothership with scout ships that travel light and fast with scout ship optimizations.

Basically, when implemented, you could jump the carrier in the system, undock your scouting ships and send them roaming around the planetary system, exploring and transmitting the info in real time.

That right there is no better then our standard searching planet by planet, moon my moon and asteroid by asteroid system we got going on right now.  That won't do anything to speed that up for us. We are still stuck searching for a crappy needle in a haystack.  The probes offer a way to search multiple systems in a shorter amount of time. It is still going to be a pain finding someone but it won't waste as much fuel and time as it does now making it a little bit easier.

[Harachte]

It's a nice idea, but this can also be achieved with a carrier / mothership with scout ships that travel light and fast with scout ship optimizations.

Basically, when implemented, you could jump the carrier in the system, undock your scouting ships and send them roaming around the planetary system, exploring and transmitting the info in real time.

That right there is no better then our standard searching planet by planet, moon my moon and asteroid by asteroid system we got going on right now.  That won't do anything to speed that up for us. We are still stuck searching for a crappy needle in a haystack.  The probes offer a way to search multiple systems in a shorter amount of time. It is still going to be a pain finding someone but it won't waste as much fuel and time as it does now making it a little bit easier.

I second JJL and would like to add that this idea (as does the whole 'carrier' idea) only benefits VIP players, since it would be kinda futile for a non-VIP player to keep a ship at hull class II or III or even IV (small ship required for the scout optimization); since we can only have 3 ships, you'd eventually want to upgrade all to max class, because you need the module space to keep up with the big guys and galls...

Unless I missed something about smaller ship classes not counting towards your total ship count for non-VIP...
Hey, wait a minute, we might be on to something here 

Seriously though: if this game gets even more unbalanced by only adding features that aid VIP, I'm outta here 

[Harachte]

Ok, you can take that last comment in my previous post with a grain of salt...

Saw the "Unlimited ship & station licenses for all" topic just after I posted it 

I might stick around a bit longer to see how this game evolves after all... 

[JamJulLison]

Emi announced recently that the limit on ships is going to be removed soon.  That said though, the time it takes to visit every single system, search every single planet, moon and asteroid for someone is just too much. Even if you brought in fast small ships like that, it is still taking a long amount of time. Not just from searching the system planet by planet but also by visiting the systems themselves as well.  In the end considering the odds of finding who you are looking for is so low, you will just end up wasting a bunch of fuel and time.  The probe idea is a way to help save a little on both time and fuel. Not to mention using probes for stuff like this wouldn't be unrealistic. It would also still take up some time and fuel but it would save you some of that as well. This issue of finding people is going to only become worse as well as more stuff is added to the 5th ring and beyond in the future.

[Harachte]

Emi announced recently that the limit on ships is going to be removed soon.  That said though, the time it takes to visit every single system, search every single planet, moon and asteroid for someone is just too much. Even if you brought in fast small ships like that, it is still taking a long amount of time. Not just from searching the system planet by planet but also by visiting the systems themselves as well.  

Although I usually agree with you on most things, most of the time; I have to disagree on this one... 
I actually like the somewhat painstakingly way of exploring one has to do in this game! Call me a masochist 

In the end considering the odds of finding who you are looking for is so low, you will just end up wasting a bunch of fuel and time.  The probe idea is a way to help save a little on both time and fuel. Not to mention using probes for stuff like this wouldn't be unrealistic. It would also still take up some time and fuel but it would save you some of that as well. This issue of finding people is going to only become worse as well as more stuff is added to the 5th ring and beyond in the future.

I do agree that one should be able to monitor the universe better in some way.
But perhaps only if a system has already been visited; sort of like: leave a 'commsat' behind that detects changes, both to planetary conditions (read: resource deposits and occupation by other players) and system activity (ships jumping in and out).

The idea of a probe is however, as you point out, not unrealistic, but long distance probes would either require massive amounts of fuel or (or perhaps and) take a very long time to reach destination. So my suggestion would be to have short range probes that you launch from ships (call them 'carrier' if you want). The idea would be you jump a ship into a system; launch probes (from the safe spot) to all bodies (planets, moons, asteroids); the probes crash into their targets and relay you the intel they gathered (resource deposits, occupation, etc.).
The intel could be presented as a report, much like the battle reports; reports could be then saved and added to a personal database, perhaps linked to the personal starmap, etc.

The 'commsat' could be a standard station with a class I hull and the 'probes' hull class I ships.
Both equipped with a new module type (comm module or detector module or whatever) or just with the already exsisting WHD.

This also implies 'commsat stations' should be visible by other players, who can of course destroy them.
Drones might also have a failure rate (chance of not getting any data due to malfunction).
Level of intel accuracy might vary with installed module level then.

[JamJulLison]

These are short range probes. Hence the 16 ly limit and after they scan a system the destroy themselves.   You actually like exploring, well so do I.  But have you ever tried to find a particular person or a particular group of people in the game.  It is a needle in a haystack. As more areas appear to explore it will only get harder. This idea would make it a bit easier but it still won't be easy.  Many probes will go to waste. Fuel and time will be spent.  Probably a good amount of both. But it would still be less then searching planet by planet, moon by moon and asteroid by asteroid with a ship or multiple ships.  The reason I suggested the probes be able to search for more then just these ships and stations is because I want to be able to give them good usability. Make them useful to more people then just those trying to hunt down others. 

[johndeere]

I'm beginning to like this post!

[Scion]

What about calling them scanners. We already have short range scanners for taking a look at the makeup of a ship.

It would be good if you could jump your ship into a system and perform a long range scan that reported on the tech in system. Preferably with a counter module say oh 'cloaking' that could be used to hide from the scanner. Then its a simple comparison of scan level vs cloak level if scan level exceeds cloak level you can detect the objects presence.... the greater the difference the more information you get.

The rational could be that technology gives of energy signals that can be detected making it possible to detect the ship.

Originally i was not so keen on being able to 'search' a whole quadrant at one time from a single ship even if its a one off, although now after some more though i really dont see a serious problem with it, especially in light that you could do the same thing with a carrier and a bunch of scout ships, So i suppose probes could extend scanners so that they are like a one time use mini scout ship that you can send too a system to perfrom a scan. The probes could be built as a seperate module (perhapes as a downstream science branch of the scanners in the electronics/survelance science tree.). You set a target system, then when they 'arrive' a scan report is generated AND SAVED IN YOUR SCANS... then the probe runs out of power. Probe tech levels could influence the scan level, and even the range.

I think that planetary surveys should probably be excluded from the scans, that is there should still be a roll for the exploreres to go out and collect planetary surveys.

[JamJulLison]

The reason I included planetary surveys on the detecting capability was to give the probes more uses then just finding people. Besides we have probes today who can detect some of the minerals of nearby planets and moons as it comes by.  So something like that on these wouldn't be unrealistic.  This here would help to benefit more players.