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Author Topic: Casting votes  (Read 6132 times)
JamJulLison
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« on: June 07, 2013, 05:53:22 PM »

Ok due to recent events we need to figure out who actually is the one responsible for casting the vote.  The representative or the alliance leader.  In my opinion the one who cast the vote should be the representative and not the alliance leader unless they happen to be the same person.  The representative, alliance leader or not should discuss the matter with their corp before casting the vote though.  If an alliance leader wishes to change their representative, they should notify the rest of the GC of the change.  It isn't the fault of the rest of the GC if the one casting the vote hasn't confirmed it with their corp or at least their corp leader.  That right there in my opinion is an issue the representative and their alliance leader.  A vote really shouldn't really be allowed to be retracted unless the rest of the GC agrees on it.  Otherwise people can just flip flop their decisions whenever they choose.  Also when casting a vote, someone should say we are calling for a vote now.  Then have the council give their vote as to avoid confusion.  What is everyone's thoughts on this?
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 06:50:09 PM »

Here is Sargas's idea.  It could work for now. Though it would mean a small change to the charter which I am not sure we really should do.  But what are the rest of yours thought.



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there are seven council members, the signees of the Charter.

The Charter calls for one voting representative per corp.  All votes are final.

Whenever there is a change of reps, the existing votes still are valid.

The Council needs to be informed of a change in reps before said change can go into effect.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 06:52:31 PM by JamJulLison » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 04:47:48 AM »

Erm....
You should state what events that we are talking about right now, jamjulison.
Otherwise someone can misunderstand what events that we are discussing about
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 02:20:49 PM »

The ones involving myself, Dadds,     Aysle and meyyo.  They can be seen in 2 threads on the forum here.
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 11:30:55 PM »

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Ok due to recent events we need to figure out who actually is the one responsible for casting the vote.
OK here is the real issue here. The rep to IMG is just that. He represents what is the view and decision of the corporation as a whole. When it came to my attention that there was some pseudo-quasi vote about blowing up a pilots orbital stations, and apparently it  was ok to do so because we "voted" in favour of it, I stepped in to inform the council that it was not discussed by our corp and so therefore was not a true and valid representation from this corporation. Last time i looked i was still boss of IMG and anything going out to the public must come past my desk for final veto and vetting.
The discussion got to boiling point because i was having a piece of paper waved in front of my face saying, cant retract, its been approved and we are going to continue with the demolition orders. Not how i see things at all.

There has to be checks and balances to make sure an off-handed and possibly unintended approval be cast by 1 member without consent with his corporation. The main check and balance is why there is one representative, but also the corp leader of each signatory of the GC has a say in forums. I exercised my right to revoke that representation, and when that wasnt enough for PMI members, i temporarily suspended our rep as is my right as corporate leader. I put him there, i can remove if i feel  it doesnt represent our views as a whole.
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Whenever there is a change of reps, the existing votes still are valid.
This suggestion by Sargas will never be approved by IMG as it removes any chance of a check and balance as i suggested earlier. I will agree to an amended view of that, something  that allows to dispute avote that was cast without prior revision by that rep's corporation.
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Also when casting a vote, someone should say we are calling for a vote now.  Then have the council give their vote as to avoid confusion.  What is everyone's thoughts on this?
On this idea i agree. Maybe we need a voting folder so that the rep knows there is a call for a formal decision so that he can then alert the corporation and receive views before commenting. I havent had a chance to discuss this incident with our rep yet as he has been away from official duties, but more than likely the comment was an offhand, "yeah ok mate" in regard to a conversation being posted, rather than a formal permission to continue.

The other thing that irritated me about this whole can o' worms, is that first you (JamJul) invite pilot meyyo into the galactic charter forums to request assistance, all be it a confused one, and then when i step in to contest the action, I am told it has nothing to do with the Galactic Charter and you can basically do as you please outside of Sol, and dare to suggest i look at the GC again. Well here it is. The opening line:
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As an alliance of the chosen we agree to promote the growth of our fellow Captains in all Corps that aspire to grow with honor.
OK. general charter policy, as i pointed out, to "promote the growth", not blowing up orbital stations because a pilot is frustrated with the interface of the game and because it is outside of Sol system. It is still within the 0,0 ring of [SOL] protectorate for new pilots to get a foothold to develop and I have a very personal feeling with regards to blowing up pilots property before they fully understand the game dynamics. I know, in your defence, JamJul, you did try to explain how to help pack up the stations in question. I just dont feel you took enough effort before destruction was brought up onto the table
I am standing down my alert for now as the destruction order has been withdrawn, as has the request (in my opinion) from forum posts and a PM from Pilot Meyyo requesting i protect her station at Syrius.
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Dadds
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 02:06:12 AM »

you know, meyyo herself is the one who ask someone to destroy her station. Jamjulison volunteer himself and i think you misunderstood the situation


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35 + 3 + 42 = 100
Want a proof?
Try manufacture FTL Drive mk 1

Before knowing this, i always thought mass won't change no matter what you do......
JamJulLison
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 03:34:26 AM »

I had no way of knowing your representative hadn't discussed it with the corp.  When you asked me to hold off on destroying any more I complied. I may have thrown all of the options our there right away, but I don't see a problem with that. I tend to be blunt at times. Sometimes too blunt.  The reason I even brought up a GC request to begin with though was because I thought maybe her stuff was in the Sol System itself.  Once I found out it wasn't I told her there really wasn't a need to make a request there but she could if she wanted to anyways. There was absolutely no need to threaten to attack PMI ships.  You act like we are your enemies when we are not.

Sol System itself is not 0,0 though you seem to consider it as such. Sol system is the system we start out in. If the rest of 0,0 was to be included, I would have made sure when I helped to write that part of the charter that it actually said 0,0.  But it don't. It says Sol.   I got a few ideas for some new things to be added to the charter I will be posting in the next day or so for us to discuss.  This event has shown me that it needs a little more work.  One thing being this thing with voting. Though how your corp decides on what your own personal vote will be is more of an internal matter itself. 

As for the part of the charter you quoted. That isn't actually one the actual terms or whatever you want to call them. But that is our general aim. All of us in the GC want to help players to grow stronger. You consider her wanting me to blow up her station as stunting her growth. Consider how long it might take for her to actually go back and retrieve the stations. That time spent in itself can be a set back.  Remember her engines aren't as fast as ours are.  Also if she had asked for some compensation for the destruction of the stations PMI would have been happy to do so.  BTW you don't need to worry about protecting her anymore.  She joined PMI earlier.  She had actually been considering joining us before this whole incident broke out.  We have given her use of a Corp SOS ship to help her to grow and become a better player.
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 01:00:22 PM »

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you know, meyyo herself is the one who ask someone to destroy her station. Jamjulison volunteer himself and i think you misunderstood the situation

The situation is over now Goodperson, but that is also how our rep saw it. However, it was JamJul who suggested to meyyo to destroy her stations and to bring it to the Galactic Council for request. That was what i didnt like and that is what my rep missed. Apparently there are also language barriers which can be misinterpreted.
Thankyou, however, for your input.
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 02:19:08 PM »

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As for the part of the charter you quoted. That isn't actually one the actual terms or whatever you want to call them. But that is our general aim.
Not sure how many constitutions you have written in your life, JamJul, but the very first opening statement is the basis to the operation of an entity. All the by-laws, amendments, addendum and regulations, are just parts of "the way we conduct ourselves to strive to achieve our goal. " You yourself said you were going to stop raiding in sector 0,0 to give the new guys who cant get out far, a fair go. I dont have an issue with raiding, but with destruction of property i do around 0,0 in particular.
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Consider how long it might take for her to actually go back and retrieve the stations. That time spent in itself can be a set back.
See, this is exactly what my beef is with your justification that you have for helping people by destroying them. Its been your underlying defense since we first met on the field of chatrooms. You feel you help by destroying others. Its the one reason you and I will never see eye to eye on terms. As to "getting around to going back to pick up a station" is only a matter of fuel. Slow engines consume less. Consider how much it costs to buy a station in the first place. How much work does it take to afford one? Or, how much QP and donations does it take? How much time and money did it take to put the station in orbit in the first place?  Dont try to justify that it is in someones best interest to blow up a station rather than leave it in place until a ship can reach it to collect. For someone like you and i who considers 100k sol or even a 1M$ sol as small change, then the time to collect would be a cost factor. But not for a new player.
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I had no way of knowing your representative hadn't discussed it with the corp.
Correct, you had no way of knowing, until i alerted you to that fact. That in itself should have called off the attack until we reviewed the matter, however it wasnt the case. Instead, you and/or your speaking members, tried to pound down the letter of the law at me.
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When you asked me to hold off on destroying any more I complied.
No you quite. You stated that you are still going to go ahead with the planned attacks unless you heard any different from the pilot (who was offline at the time) granted in a time frame.
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There was absolutely no need to threaten to attack PMI ships.
The threat was if you destroy any more stations you will come under fire by our vessels. I asked for a cease fire to your actions and was prepared to back up that request if it went unheeded. Remember, you guys are the pirates and as such, it sits uneasy for me especially when i see you hiding behind the charters. It was the same back in ancient history that charters were used as a means for "legal" piracy and i dont want our charter to reflect our forefather's grim past.
Since you guys want to operate only within the cold hard letter of "the law", i will be looking at writing the doctrines to be just that.
If this situation was reversed and it was you guys asking me to hold up on a point of order, i would have complied instantly and not have others weighing in their opinion on how to read the GC.
Anyway, getting a little way off the topic of casting votes. Lets just say that the check and balance of a senior corp member is the way we work here(at IMG) to alert the GC if there was a slip up. Its why i didnt assume the role of rep. I am too busy to get involved in petty politics, i believe the top head of corp shouldnt be the rep and happy for my senior members to assume that role, but reserve the right to step in where there has been an error or misconduct. Its the difference between a democracy and a totalitarian or fascist government
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JamJulLison
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 05:15:40 PM »

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Not sure how many constitutions you have written in your life, JamJul, but the very first opening statement is the basis to the operation of an entity. All the by-laws, amendments, addendum and regulations, are just parts of "the way we conduct ourselves to strive to achieve our goal. " You yourself said you were going to stop raiding in sector 0,0 to give the new guys who cant get out far, a fair go. I dont have an issue with raiding, but with destruction of property i do around 0,0 in particular.

The basis and the aim of the charter. Not the actual terms.  But we can work on this and get things moving in that direction more. Not sure how much I will be able to discuss it after the 16th though. Going to Kentucky until the 1st. Going to be at my girlfriend's place and I am not sure how often I will be online there. BTW I never said i was going to stop raiding in 0,0. I said the Sol System. Your 2nd in command can verify that. Though I don't personally raid much at all anymore.

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See, this is exactly what my beef is with your justification that you have for helping people by destroying them. Its been your underlying defense since we first met on the field of chatrooms. You feel you help by destroying others. Its the one reason you and I will never see eye to eye on terms. As to "getting around to going back to pick up a station" is only a matter of fuel. Slow engines consume less. Consider how much it costs to buy a station in the first place. How much work does it take to afford one? Or, how much QP and donations does it take? How much time and money did it take to put the station in orbit in the first place?  Dont try to justify that it is in someones best interest to blow up a station rather than leave it in place until a ship can reach it to collect. For someone like you and i who considers 100k sol or even a 1M$ sol as small change, then the time to collect would be a cost factor. But not for a new player.

To a newer player the time spent to get to it though sometimes doesn't feel like it would be worth it to pick it up. Considering the fact I left a station behind on accident and didn't bother to go back for it was for this very reason. In the time it takes I could be doing other things to make up that money.  Besides I gave her the options.  I didn't try to sweet talk her into destroying them. I didn't say destroying them would be the best idea. I gave her options.  She picked the destruction route at the time. That there isn't my fault.

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Correct, you had no way of knowing, until i alerted you to that fact. That in itself should have called off the attack until we reviewed the matter, however it wasnt the case. Instead, you and/or your speaking members, tried to pound down the letter of the law at me.

Actually I did put the demolition of the stations on hold when you asked me. I read your post in the council area first and immediately posted that I would wait.   I only pointed out I was not violating the GC charter when you suggested I might be. It was after I said I would wait that you threatened to attack PMI ships.

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No you quite. You stated that you are still going to go ahead with the planned attacks unless you heard any different from the pilot (who was offline at the time) granted in a time frame.

Your right.  I was giving her 24 hours actually. I didn't know how active she was and I really didn't want to waste too much time but I also figured if she was an active player that she would be on in that time.


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The threat was if you destroy any more stations you will come under fire by our vessels. I asked for a cease fire to your actions and was prepared to back up that request if it went unheeded. Remember, you guys are the pirates and as such, it sits uneasy for me especially when i see you hiding behind the charters. It was the same back in ancient history that charters were used as a means for "legal" piracy and i dont want our charter to reflect our forefather's grim past.
Since you guys want to operate only within the cold hard letter of "the law", i will be looking at writing the doctrines to be just that.
If this situation was reversed and it was you guys asking me to hold up on a point of order, i would have complied instantly and not have others weighing in their opinion on how to read the GC.
Anyway, getting a little way off the topic of casting votes. Lets just say that the check and balance of a senior corp member is the way we work here(at IMG) to alert the GC if there was a slip up. Its why i didnt assume the role of rep. I am too busy to get involved in petty politics, i believe the top head of corp shouldnt be the rep and happy for my senior members to assume that role, but reserve the right to step in where there has been an error or misconduct. Its the difference between a democracy and a totalitarian or fascist government

You asked and I gave it. Yes in a time frame but I gave it. I only gave a time frame because I didn't want to waste too much time.  I didn't offer to blow it up cause I like doing that stuff. As I have said many time before I gave her options. The reason I was planning on doing it as I raided was so that the trip wouldn't be a complete waste. I hate doing stuff and not getting any profit from it in the game. You immediately took everything though that I was trying to bully her or something into letting me blow it up when that wasn't the case. Honestly I was glad when she changed her mind about the stations.

Our corp for the most part is a democracy. We do try to vote on matters. The reason why I am representing the corp itself in this matter though is cause I tend to be more diplomatic then some of our other people.  I am used to this sort of arena online. I trust my division leaders, but this kind of stuff I prefer to handle myself. If you decide to appoint another person as your representative, make sure they are going to discuss matters with you first before voting. The rest of the council can not be held responsible for what breaks down in your internal matters.


So here is something I am proposing for voting. 

1. Before votes can be counted someone must call for a vote.

2. Votes can only be rescinded if the majority of the council agrees.


Number 2 there allows for some wiggle room in a situation such as this. At the same time we can't allow people to just vote and retract whenever they feel like it. There are people out there who might try that. Not saying they are in our corps. But I know there are people out there that might do that.
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