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Author Topic: Reverse Engineering  (Read 1229 times)
Antilak
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« on: December 10, 2015, 03:58:18 PM »

Ok I know there're modules we can't manufacture directly (in turn we don't research them). For example, the Crematorium you get from combat missions and the Solar Hydrogen Infuser you get from Pledging. Yet I know, despite not being able to create directly, we can use the Reverse Engineering science in Mark Upgrade to upgrade these modules.

My question is why can't I reverse engineer a Advanced Cargo Module MK III to MK VI using a Advanced Cargo Module MK III IF my Reverse Engineering is level 6? I should be able to right? If I can combine two Crematorium MK III to produce a MK VI then I should be able to do the same thing with an Advanced Cargo Module. But when I try to do this, it says I need to train my Advanced Cargo research to level 6! That's stupid, it's contrary to the whole idea of reverse engineering!

The REASON I bring this up is because during COM missions I collect a lot of taenite/cabriite/mercury and it consumes cargo after a while. So I manufacture MK III Advanced Cargo Module to replace it with something which only is 100 m3. I was thinking about training Advanced Cargo high enough to make this effective but then I thought I could use Reverse Engineer instead since it's irrespective of research other than Reverse Engineering. So I'm flabbergasted I can't do this. Apparently you can only reverse engineer--irrespective of other sciences--something which DOESN'T have other sciences to create it.

My guess is it's this way because otherwise we wouldn't have to train anything other than Reverse Engineering more than 1 point. For example, I could train Advanced Cargo to 1 and create two MK 1 advanced cargo modules. Then I could train Reverse Engineering to 2 and--using reverse engineering--combine the two advanced cargo modules to produce a MK 2. As long as I keep training Reverse Engineering, I would not need to put any points into Advanced Cargo research.

It still seems counterintuitive. It seems it's restricted so the system--as stated above--isn't broken. I think--generally--systems don't have to be artificially restricted if they're well thought. I think this system isn't well thought.

EDIT: Yes I chose to train standard cargo research instead of advanced cargo. Don't go there because it misses the point I'm  trying to make here about Reverse Engineering. If you want to reply state how my point is wrong.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 04:16:57 PM by Antilak » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 07:01:55 PM »

To "merge" 2 ACB-3s into 1 ACB-6, you need to have BOTH your ACB AND your Reverse Engineering tech @ the target level (6 in this case). When you do, it works.
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2015, 08:53:10 PM »

you can 'merge' modules only to the level of the lower tech (whether reverse engineering or whatever module you are trying to upgrade)

Since you do not have the tech to build a MKVI, you don't have the basic tech to upgrade via rev-eng.
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Antilak
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2015, 11:51:29 PM »

Neither of you seem to have noticed I already knew that and even stated it in the post.

So this is what's going on, below.

Crematorium MK II + Crematorium MK II = Crematorium MK IV
* requires Reverse Engineering science is at least level 4
Advanced Cargo MK II + Advanced Cargo MK II = Advanced Cargo MK IV
* same as above, but also requires Advanced Cargo science is at least 4

I know htis is nitpicking, but why am I magically able to combine an exotic technology, even alien, to yield something of higher MK, merely by training Reverse Engineering, yet I can't do the same with technology I've created myself?

I understand it's doing this so it doesn't break the research system. I just wish it was more intuitive.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 12:55:14 AM by Antilak » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2015, 05:59:53 AM »

I agree with you that RE should be the only tech needed, unfortunately ......

BTW you get more income from loot if you don't manufacture modules.
11 Cabriite     19 Mercury   36 Tanenite sells at earth for $7,037
Take those mats and manufacture an ACB-1 and it sells for $5,250

I have multiple COM ships. (11) I do all my COM's in one sector (-2,4) I have one freighter/science/manufacuring ship dedicated to working COM's. When one a ship finishes a looter COM it drops by the freigher and offloads loot. Whenever the freighter fills with loot, it makes a trip to earth, unloads the loot, buys mats to make more shields and MAU's then heads back to sector -2,4. Most of my COM ships haven't seen sol in months.

Just a couple of COM hints.
1) always loot the station first. You get more loot and the two combat timers are faster than one destroy timer.
2) If the "reward" for a looter COM is $2 million or more, the station has no marines. You can attack it with just one attack point and still win a second destroy attack, the combat timer is less than a minute.

finally, the fastest way to grow is to join another corporation. Any of the major corporations will give you a number of experienced players that can give you advice. In addition, most corporations give help to newer players. SPQNR is the only corp that is oranized as a democracy and is IMO superier to the others, but feel free to check them all out.



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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2015, 08:40:09 AM »

You should join HHW, we need more people.
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Antilak
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015, 04:57:34 PM »

I agree with you that RE should be the only tech needed, unfortunately ......

BTW you get more income from loot if you don't manufacture modules.
11 Cabriite     19 Mercury   36 Tanenite sells at earth for $7,037
Take those mats and manufacture an ACB-1 and it sells for $5,250

I have multiple COM ships. (11) I do all my COM's in one sector (-2,4) I have one freighter/science/manufacuring ship dedicated to working COM's. When one a ship finishes a looter COM it drops by the freigher and offloads loot. Whenever the freighter fills with loot, it makes a trip to earth, unloads the loot, buys mats to make more shields and MAU's then heads back to sector -2,4. Most of my COM ships haven't seen sol in months.

Just a couple of COM hints.
1) always loot the station first. You get more loot and the two combat timers are faster than one destroy timer.
2) If the "reward" for a looter COM is $2 million or more, the station has no marines. You can attack it with just one attack point and still win a second destroy attack, the combat timer is less than a minute.

finally, the fastest way to grow is to join another corporation. Any of the major corporations will give you a number of experienced players that can give you advice. In addition, most corporations give help to newer players. SPQNR is the only corp that is oranized as a democracy and is IMO superier to the others, but feel free to check them all out.
Hmm thanks. I didn't realize or I forgot the sell price of a module is less than the sell price of its resources. It's still possible it's better to make modules, given I MIGHT save time or hassle by producing modules. But your point is a solid one. I could use one of my science ships to follow my COM ship, since they all got cargo room.

If I had chosen to research Advanced Cargo instead of the standard, I could have used these resources for reducing the cost of upgrading my cargo modules. Not sure of its usefulness, but it would have been another option for me.

I didn't about loot + capture being faster than capture. Again thanks.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 05:33:39 PM by Antilak » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2015, 10:39:21 PM »

Antilak: maybe you should convert your science ships to COM ships by spreading your science labs to all of your ships. This way you would make more COM missions at the same time, then more solars. Think about it.

As for cargo I do not use ADV cargo, I have MK MM cargo. It is longer to build, cost more tech for the same capacity but cost less than half to build always for the same capacity.
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015, 11:19:10 PM »

I use advanced cargo bays mk. VIII, and a mk. L I got from somewhere😺
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Antilak
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2015, 10:12:49 PM »

Antilak: maybe you should convert your science ships to COM ships by spreading your science labs to all of your ships. This way you would make more COM missions at the same time, then more solars. Think about it.

As for cargo I do not use ADV cargo, I have MK MM cargo. It is longer to build, cost more tech for the same capacity but cost less than half to build always for the same capacity.

Absolutely not, at least at this time. First of all, my COM ship needs lots of module space. If I converted all of them to COM ships, that means much less science produced. Second, it requires more time for me to manage my COM ship. While you might be right that having a dozen COM ships would ultimately make more money and even potentially more science as a consequence of more solars, it's just too demanding. I have 1 COM, 7 science, 1 transport and 2 scouts and it's already too demanding on my time. And lastly, having my science ships at Earth, as they're right now, makes it easy if I need to produce a module at random, since they can immediately purchase from the exchange station. And of course they can't be attacked at Earth.

Keep in mind I like to mine. It does take up time. I know it's inferior to COM or SOS missions, but it's just something I like to do. So given this is hte case, I just don't got the time for more COM ships.

However, I might decide to start using a few of my science ships to collect from my COM ship and possibly collect from stations. Right now, for example, I'm using my scouts to collect, but starting to think it'd be better just to convert them to science ships because it's not optimal right now. Also if one of my stations is in a system with a star too close to critical, I could use the science ship with the infusers to delay it. Since they're so large and have so much cargo, they don't need to travel back/forth from SOL like my scouts. I'm not exactly sure how I'll handle this, but I need to change what I'm doing.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 10:24:24 PM by Antilak » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2015, 11:39:38 PM »

Antilak: Naturally, you play the game as you see fit. I was just sharing my experience with you. Since you share the information, of my 42 ships, 41 are COM ships and one a very very fast scout-carrier ( a few seconds between stars, hangar capacity: most of my ships). 2 of my COM ships are doing guard duty, one at my mining operation (extraction power: 2500 m3/hr of each type) and the other protecting my stations. Since my COM missions last between 2-4 week, it is not a problem to manage.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 11:47:19 PM by Matamaure001 » Report to moderator   Logged
Antilak
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2015, 10:32:01 PM »

Antilak: Naturally, you play the game as you see fit. I was just sharing my experience with you. Since you share the information, of my 42 ships, 41 are COM ships and one a very very fast scout-carrier ( a few seconds between stars, hangar capacity: most of my ships). 2 of my COM ships are doing guard duty, one at my mining operation (extraction power: 2500 m3/hr of each type) and the other protecting my stations. Since my COM missions last between 2-4 week, it is not a problem to manage.

As my science/modules advance and I learn the game, I might eventually adopt some of what you do.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 11:13:41 PM by Antilak » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 07:50:22 PM »

Antilak: Naturally, you play the game as you see fit. I was just sharing my experience with you.

As my science/modules advance and I learn the game, I might eventually adopt some of what you do.

... my experience exactly - and the advice came from Mata, as well. I had four dedicated science vessels (and I'm convinced I needed all of them to begin with, since the science modules were relatively low). Eventually, I saw that I'd built a strong enough foundation to 1) raise science modules to a level I calculated I'd need, 2) place less (12) science modules of significantly higher mark, on COM ships, and 3) re-purpose the sci ships to COM ships. It's working well. :-)
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 05:01:59 PM »

I agree with you that RE should be the only tech needed, unfortunately ......

BTW you get more income from loot if you don't manufacture modules.
11 Cabriite     19 Mercury   36 Tanenite sells at earth for $7,037
Take those mats and manufacture an ACB-1 and it sells for $5,250

I have multiple COM ships. (11) I do all my COM's in one sector (-2,4) I have one freighter/science/manufacuring ship dedicated to working COM's. When one a ship finishes a looter COM it drops by the freigher and offloads loot. Whenever the freighter fills with loot, it makes a trip to earth, unloads the loot, buys mats to make more shields and MAU's then heads back to sector -2,4. Most of my COM ships haven't seen sol in months.

Just a couple of COM hints.
1) always loot the station first. You get more loot and the two combat timers are faster than one destroy timer.
2) If the "reward" for a looter COM is $2 million or more, the station has no marines. You can attack it with just one attack point and still win a second destroy attack, the combat timer is less than a minute.

finally, the fastest way to grow is to join another corporation. Any of the major corporations will give you a number of experienced players that can give you advice. In addition, most corporations give help to newer players. SPQNR is the only corp that is oranized as a democracy and is IMO superier to the others, but feel free to check them all out.
Hmm thanks. I didn't realize or I forgot the sell price of a module is less than the sell price of its resources. It's still possible it's better to make modules, given I MIGHT save time or hassle by producing modules. But your point is a solid one. I could use one of my science ships to follow my COM ship, since they all got cargo room.

If I had chosen to research Advanced Cargo instead of the standard, I could have used these resources for reducing the cost of upgrading my cargo modules. Not sure of its usefulness, but it would have been another option for me.

I didn't about loot + capture being faster than capture. Again thanks.

I agree with your thoughts, but I think it's a little the other way around. The little problem is the fact that exotic tech does NOT need any research at all, which is the point that I find a little "lacking reality".

So rather put research in exotic modules instead of turning the research on it's head using reverse engineering for everything. 1

Here a good point why it's silly to use reverse engineering in the first place anyway.
It's way more time consuming.

Building mk10 without RE: (without officer)
10mk = 30h
Upgrading mk5 to mk10 without RE:
5mk (15h) + 5mk (15h) = 10mk 30h
Building mk 10 USING reverse engineering:
5mk (15h) + 5mk (15h) + 15h reverse engineering = 45h

So as you see, it's extremely more time consuming. Best thing is to upgrade.

Reverse engineering is only valuable if your compressing exotic modules....anything else is an extreme waste of time and therefor income and profit.
The best way to avoid wasting, using reverse engineering, is a very exact and long term calculation of your future module needs.


The other thing I would like to add is simple:

Building a ACB-C from loot has a mineral/gas value of 703,000$ and will provide 7725m3.

But IF instead of building an ACB-C, you sold those minerals, and you bought minerals and gas from sol to built a standard cargo then you could build a CAB-556 for 1264$ each mk.
ACB-C = 7725m3
CAB-556 = 13,975m3
Almost double 1
 ...I would continue standard cargo research and forget completely about reverse engineering if possible.

Peace 1
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 05:04:41 PM by TEDDY » Report to moderator   Logged

Duh!!
Choose peace!
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