To Jake

[Irredrache]

The UC in my estimation strives to be just and honorable, to preserve justice and peace, not to force justice for past events.

Are you F***cking KIDDING ME? Do you even see the words you're typing? Preserve justice and peace, not force justice for past events... except for when JoolzVern feels like forcing justice for past events? At the expense of that very UC? And of alliances and friendships with one of the fairest players AG has ever seen?
 

Irredrache, if I ran into your bathroom and stole your toilet paper just before you're about to wipe, would paying you fifty cents back for the tp be enough for you to forgive that?

If you ran into my bathroom to steal my toilet paper, I would grab you by the throat and beat you down. Which is really what the problem is, isn't it? You lost the war, and you're upset. Nero is no Hitler. He fought you in a war that you didn't want. Was it a stupid war? Sure. But all he did was fight in it. He didn't exterminate millions of Jews, or cheat, or surprise attack someone that was still an ally at the time - Dadds dissolved your alliance very clearly, I would say. The galaxy does not bow to your will, Joolz, you are not the sole arbiter of which wars are allowed and not allowed. And now, you've taken the mantle of Dadds. You threaten hostilities and insult allies because you were slighted on the UC forum when Rostin didn't wait to hear you out on the Jake issue before admitting him to SPQNR. How far are you willing to go because you didn't like what happened on the forums? Will you attack Rostin because of a perceived slight? One of the fairest, most peace-loving players in the game?

Let me make something ABUNDANTLY clear to you, JoolzVern. You do not have any say WHATSOEVER in who joins SPQNR. I'm sorry a former member of yours joined us. I'm sorry someone who destroyed your modules joined us. But that's just too d**n bad. It's not your business. If they attack you, in stark violation of the UC and of SPQNR's own constitution, then we will deal with that issue when it arises. But until that time, the amount of say you have in internal SPQNR affairs, such as recruiting, is precisely ZERO.

And know this. If you attack a member of SPQNR, any member who is flying our flag, that is an act of hostility on our entire Corp. You do NOT have the Senate's permission to selectively attack Senators you feel have wronged you. If you feel that violence is the only solution to your problem, I highly suggest you PM Nero in-game and ask him if he'd be willing to set up a duel of some kind. Mutually agreed upon combat at a mutually agreed upon time is a private matter, and not subject to the actions of the Senate. But if you simply attack Nero, or ANY member of this corporation, then this is what happens next: There will be an emergency vote to decide how to deal with the situation. We're a democracy, and war is NOT something we take lightly or choose for our members. Normally, a wanton attack on a member of New Rome would result in a swift vote, and swifter retaliation.... However, since Nero has a great deal more honor than you, he has insisted that we allow you to attack him, because he doesn't want our new players to be dragged into a war. Since you couldn't even begin to handle him by yourself, I'm inclined to let him have his way. But if you persist in this course, and carry out unprovoked attacks on Nero, there WILL be a vote, regardless. The will of the Senate is made law in SPQNR, and God help you if the will of the Senate is that a defensive war is the appropriate course of action.

[Viracocha]

Irredrache i don't know why you are upset about Jack/Nero, hi can speak in his name
It's was good for him when hi attack all what hi can to destroy, and when hi was wiped out hi decide to declare truce by his side, why hi didn't do that before ...
I am peaceful player but if i go to war i will go to the extinction (my or my enemy), i will not hide after defeat, and what SPQNR done by accepting Jack as fully corp member totally disappoint me.
I am not saying that hi maybe not deserve to be amnestied, but to be accepted from corp which players was attacked so many times by him in past, i don't get it ...

[raphael]

As what I have told Raptor, maybe some of us are taking the game too seriously. 

Anyway, Rostin and Irre, if let's say one your allies betrayed you for a very childish reason and kept attacking you for many months, and then they suddenly joined another corp, would you let just it pass and leave them alone? And come on, 25 QPs isn't really much, even for mid level players.. LOL If you answer with "yes" then discussing further will be a waste of time.

[JoolzVern]

I do agree with Raph ironically lol

Irredrache if you've been paying attention you'll notice I never told Rostin what to do. I simply CONDEMN IT AND WILL NOT ALLOW JAKE/NERO TO SLIDE and I'm allowed to do so. Nothing in the UC forbids Rostin from taking in guys like Jake. I never told him not to. Nothing forbids me from un-signing the agreements as I did and doing as I please just as Rostin may.

When Rostin did this he didn't just 'slight me' he knew very well that he was telling ITO what to do like Dadds, so just get real ok? This passive aggressive totalitarian stuff isn't working on me. When you go from asking me to forgive someone to forcing us to either do so or leave the UC, I insist that the guy stay on our hitlist. Would be different if he just joined SPQNR right off- I would have not left the UC for an old beef like I will when the UC is used to try to make us let it go. The reason the UC doesn't aim to force justice for past events is so corps individually, CAN. Rostin is the new Dadds from my perspective, trying to tell ITO what to do and break up the UC.
Mission accomplished.

If you disagree that's fine. If you think so highly of someone who by your own admission fought in a 'stupid war' as though he must cheat at the game to warrant this that's fine too. If you want people in SPQNR or corps in the UC that don't really care if what Rostin is doing is stupid that's fine too. The thing is what you think doesn't influence my actions at all.

I unsigned the UC charter as soon as Jam told me Jake/Nero was in SPQNR so we aren't bound by the UC agreement and neither are you as far as ITO goes, but again I repeat myself, at the moment only Jake/Nero is on our list. No duels, just happy hunting. Jam actually had a similar arrangement with Mythiclord though ITO and TGE are allies.

[raphael]

Let's also not forget that Jake quit out of convenience, and not because he is a changed man. Haha. You can read his post about not attacking SSS anymore, there is no sign of remorse whatsoever, so you can tell that he did enjoy attacking everyone, even up to now. 

Had I not attacked him relentlessly and had I not destroyed his station a couple of days ago, I seriously doubt that he would quit IMG. He quit IMG because he wanted to mine peacefully, but what about other players that he attacked? Had they not wanted to just mine peacefully? Yet he attacked them. And they didn't really have an easy way out like Jake, did they? They endured Jake's attacks. Now Jake wants to get out easily...

Oh well, let readers decide.

[raphael]

Rostin is the new Dadds from my perspective, trying to tell ITO what to do and break up the UC.

A bit over the top, IMO. Rostin just wants more members, and Dadds was, well, on whole different level. 

[JamJulLison]

You know I am really sick of this whole situation.  First Rostin comes to us asking for us to forgive and forget Jake's past actions. He says Jake wants to go solo and just start fresh.  I try to explain I can't just let him off the hook.  I also try to explain why.  Just as I have hear. But none of you seem to be able to grasp the reason no matter how I try to explain it.  I told Rostin that while I wouldn't force my people to come after Jake, he would remain on my personal KOS list. Now Rostin knows well enough I don't bother hunting for people usually. What my KOS list means is if I happen to see them I hit them.  When I told him this in the game, he asked if I would still attack him if he took him in. I told him if that happened I wouldn't be able to because of the charter.  On the UC forum the same discussion played out more or less the same way.  Once it was clear that not even a name change would stop us from coming after him, Rostin brought him into his corp.  He might as well have just taken him in without asking us not to hit him. It seems clear this was his backup plan to begin with simply because he was going to make sure we couldn't hit Jake regardless.  So really there was no point in asking us at all.  To me I felt insulted and it really caused me to lose some respect for Rostin.  Now I see how SPQNR is acting here and I lose more and more respect for you guys.  Raph and I may not always see eye to eye but even he understands where we are coming from on this. Not just him it seems others in SSS do as well.

Rostin you know very well I thought highly of you before all this.  I have spoken well of you many times on here and to other captain in the game.  Yes there have been things you have done that have aggravated me a bit but not much to cause me to lose respect for you.  Though I get the feeling you don't care one way or the other how much respect I have for you.

To the members of SSS,  we appreciate your support in this.  You are correct about Jake.  But this isn't about the attacks. At least not to me.  For Jake it is his actions in supporting an unjust war and helping to carry out the war.  Quite frankly if Rostin had taken him prior to this I likely would have told him to f off when he asked me to leave Jake alone.  Now we see them trying to make it seem like we are the bad guys here. They act like we are the ones in the wrong.   It is really trying my patience.  The only thing keeping me from doing something drastic here is the UC.  I care about the charter.  I want to make the UC work.  But that is the only thing holding me back right now.  I keep hoping perhaps SPQNR will at least see reason or that SirEmi will go ahead and unblock Jake for me so I can try to work this out with him myself.


BTW about the incident with Mythiclord. Yes we had that agreement. Mythic was fine with it.  I never did run into him though and he didn't get him. These days I have removed mythic from my KOS list. I got no beef with him now.  He only ended up on it over a matter of principal. He hit one of my guys. I wanted 1 revenge hit.  But oh well. lol.  It was nothing compared to what is going on now. In my eyes Mythic is a saint compared to Jake.

[Irredrache]

Vira, it's not really about Jake. Jake didn't join us for protection, he's a big boy and can take care of himself.

It's about how SPQNR has been treated by certain other Corps since its inception.

Let's just get the sequence of events straight surrounding SPQNR...

Rostin and myself were members of SSS, as everyone here knows. Rostin had aspirations to one day possess his own corp, and he shared those aspirations in confidence with JJL and myself. JJL, in a calculated attempt to split SSS apart, betrayed that confidence on the forums in a manner that forced Rostin out of SSS at least months before he was ready, and at a time when I was petitioning him to stay in SSS (because *I* wanted to stay in SSS, because Raph pretty much taught me everything I know and I *still* feel indebted to him). This, JJL, is why I will never give a poop if you're upset with us or happy with us or respect us, you permanently lost MY respect when you so flagrantly manipulated things to your own advantage. And frankly, I'm shocked Raph didn't annihilate you for that incredibly untrustworthy move. You used the forums to drastically alter the game itself, which is more dishonorable than any number of attacks in a publicly stated war using actual game mechanics. The forums should be about building the community around the game, not using them to split Corps in the game.

But JJL did that and somehow got away with it. So SPQNR was formed, and we were content to do our own thing. All comers were welcome, and one of those comers was Mythiclord, who had left ITO in an unrelated move. Suddenly, JJL is furious with Rostin and Myth and Joolz cuts all ties with Myth, because apparently Myth isn't allowed to make his own decisions? There was obvious hostility there, but neither JJL nor Joolz had a leg to stand on.

And now, finally, we come to the present. What do you think Vira, is it really all about Jake? Does any of the above lead you to think we've been treated fairly up until now? Our former teammates in SSS have treated us well, and as always sargas is the PERFECT gentleman. But that's about it.

I'm not going to argue about this any more. I don't speak for SPQNR, and I don't want to jeopardize the game for our AWESOME new players that are just trying to learn Astro Galaxy for the first time.... But I do want to respond to something Raph said:

Anyway, Rostin and Irre, if let's say one your allies betrayed you for a very childish reason and kept attacking you for many months, and then they suddenly joined another corp, would you let just it pass and leave them alone? And come on, 25 QPs isn't really much, even for mid level players.. LOL If you answer with "yes" then discussing further will be a waste of time.

Raph, I would do pretty much exactly as you and JJL have done. I would ask for an apology and be irritated, but I wouldn't jeopardize an existing alliance over it. If I had done what JJL did to Rostin, I'd still be too busy begging for forgiveness to care much about it. I certainly wouldn't go to war over it, especially if I was responsible for the safety and enjoyment of a Corp that looked up to me as leader *cough* Joolz *cough*.

One last plea: JJL, do you want to atone for utterly screwing Rostin over at a time when he completely trusted you? Stop goading Joolz on, and play peacemaker instead. It's within your power to end this nonsense, and usher in the first period of peace this galaxy has seen since Dadds first declared war on Raph.

[Raptor]

JJL, in a calculated attempt to split SSS apart, betrayed that confidence on the forums in a manner that forced Rostin out of SSS at least months before he was ready, and at a time when I was petitioning him to stay in SSS (because *I* wanted to stay in SSS, because Raph pretty much taught me everything I know and I *still* feel indebted to him). This, JJL, is why I will never give a poop if you're upset with us or happy with us or respect us, you permanently lost MY respect when you so flagrantly manipulated things to your own advantage.

This

[Rostin]

Woah woah woah woah woah... What-the-actual-f**k is going on here?...  
Can I try to explain myself a little publicly real quick?
1.) Me and my actions...
First off, you guys know me... I am the exact same person who started playing over half a year ago and who was the first player to receive NOT ONE, BUT TWO promotions in the SSS. I must have been doing something right because you guys were all happy to talk to me for the last several months. I have been friends with you all since I first joined the Syndicate in April and have had many enjoyable experiences working with you. I have made it clear that I have ALWAYS wanted galactic peace in this game. Now I knew that wouldn't happen as long as IMG still existed, but *shrug* I could still try right?   I don't know why you are suddenly surprised by my actions. Raph is right that some people take this game too seriously. Why can't everyone just be as chill as Sargas or Lisunken?  
I'm not part of your generation of corporations or leaders, and I'm d**n proud to be able to say that! So really, I don't give two-shits about the war you all have had going with IMG since the seeming dawn of time. I really don't. Why should I care about that? Jake has been nothing but a friend and rival to me whereas you guys have ALL done things to make me question your trustworthiness. And quite frankly I am tired of hearing all this jargon about how I "used the UC as a shield for my seemingly unethical actions". I helped found the UC. I contributed to it more than what I needed to and I was behind it since day 1. My recruiting of nero had nothing to do with my association with the UC. You can claim to understand my motivations, but I was not trying to use the UC as a shield. It was convenient, absolutely, but unintentional. I guess I trusted you guys to just let me do this and see over time that jake just wanted to mine without the threat of losing everything everyday.
I admitted this to Joolz and I'll admit it here to. I screwed up not waiting for a reply from you two (JJL and Joolz). I am sorry for that. I forgot exactly what happened but I was just so excited that Raph gave me his blessing that I didn't even consider that you two would be the biggest hard-asses of all. JamJul, I want to make it known that you are being completely reasonable through most, if not all, of this. Your "demand" of nero is not outright absurd and your honoring of the UC charter keeps you in good standing with me personally. Joolz on the other hand...
Comparing me to Dadds. Wow, that would sting a little if there was any truth to that. Also, I'm friends with Dadds in AG too! Problem? He's actually a nice guy if you stay on his good side and don't f**k**g insult him every five seconds. You still think I FORCED you to do anything? Your own stubbornness made you lose control. The fact that you laid an ultimatum on the front desk of the UC offices forced you to act the way you did. My behavior only influences yours if you let it. That is the truth. Don't say you didn't have any options because you did and you still do.
And Raphael, jake didn't betray these guys. Dadds did. Try as you may, I don't pin the sins of one man on another. If I had been trying to take Dadds in I would have TOTALLY understood this reaction and would have expected you to squash me like a bug  
2.) My corp and its reputation...
Just like me, SPQNR is not made up of players from your generation. The Senate was very adamant about how to handle the situation and I was at panic-stations-nine for like, the last two days over all of this   SPQNR, EOS, and NHC are the ONLY corporations that don't see IMG members as a lost cause. It's all about restorative justice with us. You guys are so focused on retaliation and revenge that you can't just try a different tactic and rehabilitate a "criminal?"
You can say what you want about New Rome, but the glory days for your corps have ended and mine are just beginning. Raphael is right that I DO want more members! I want peace! I want you all to just stop fighting because of the public actions of a handful of people! Truth is, you guys are the minority. You may be a powerful and present minority, but your continued hostility towards me and "lost of trust" are only the reactions of two people. And vira, if I cared about your disappointment in New Rome I would have asked your opinion prior to all of this...
3.) Jake/Nero...
I also made it clear to anyone who bothered to ask since like, May, that jake was my friend. He always has been.  
Sargas, Mythiclord, Me, and probably dozens of other members did not see Jake as the public menace that you guys are willing to label him as, even in war. Raphael told me once that jake wasn't a bad guy and that quickly became obvious the more I talked to him. Why should Jake apologize and jump through hoops for fighting in a war when all he did was play the game and attack? You say there is no remorse in his message Raph, well yeah, he enjoyed shooting at people just as much as you do. What's wrong with that? He didn't fly off the handle like Dadds. He didn't betray any of you because it was obvious you didn't understand how you can be friends with the same people you fight against.
In regards to the 25 QP, he told us he tried to send money. I knew it was a bad idea and that sum is a bit... insulting. But I didn't know how much he was sending, I just told him you guys were looking for an apology.

My final argument; I only asked you all as a courtesy. I only waited for Raphael's response because he is the sole entity capable of laying New Rome (and me!) to waste. I also thought he would be the hardest sell of all, but I see now that that title goes to Joolz. I'm friends with all of you. You being mad at me only makes you look like children.
I don't care if you stay mad at nero. Go for it. If that makes you feel better and you think that is the healthy option then that is your choice. But I am giving him a new life and as long as he is here he will be treated equally as a Senator, member, and friend.
(^THIS WAS TYPED BEFORE IRREDRACHE'S LATEST RESPONSE^)
I wasn't really *forced* out of SSS, but when I told Raphael my plans he 'pressured' me to accelerate my agenda  

[Raptor]

I unsigned the UC charter as soon as Jam told me Jake/Nero was in SPQNR so we aren't bound by the UC agreement and neither are you as far as ITO goes, but again I repeat myself, at the moment only Jake/Nero is on our list. No duels, just happy hunting. Jam actually had a similar arrangement with Mythiclord though ITO and TGE are allies.

The armalite and ballot box strategy... If you can't get your way politically, there's always the armed route. I guess it marks a nice change from your constant Nazi/fascist references (guys: what do Rostin and the US Government have in common? :p  )

You may have FORMALLY unsigned the UC charter after Nero joined us, but for all practical purposes, you did before, by ignoring its first rule. Look it up again some day

[JamJulLison]

Ok lets start with Irredrache.  You really think I purposely blabbed about Rostin wanting to form his own corp just to Raph would cut him loose early?  Get real man.  I wasn't trying to do that at all.  I am one who isn't afraid of speaking my mind to people.  That is what I was doing to Raph when I brought up the Rostin thing. I had a good point. It wasn't to try to drive a wedge in between them though. This was stuff I had heard multiple say and I had even thought myself.  To most people Rostin was the heart of SSS.  I figured even raph knew that and raph knew Rostin was considering forming his own corp.  I thought forming his own corp would be the best thing for Rostin so I encouraged him to do so. Not to hurt SSS but to help himself.  I don't bother coming up with complicated subversive plans like your suggesting. Fact is those take too much time and effort and really aren't worth doing.  Yes I might suspect others of doing this. But that is because I have a tendency to think about things others might do.  I make a plan of action for various situations.  A good leader tries to do that.

 As for Jake joining you.  I call bullcrap on it not being for protection.  His first concern when he decides to leave IMG (after having Raph beat the tar out of him) is to run to his new friend Rostin. He begs him to talk to the other Captains and ask them to leave him alone. So Rostin did. Raph decides to let things go because his members ask him to. It isn't as huge of a deal to him though because the reason for the war is different. IMG's war with Raph began when Raph hit them early on. Dadds took it personally and the war began.  Even when Raph settled down and stopped going after people Dadds did not let up.  In this case Jake was simply another IMG member caught up in the war. The issues in which the war began was much different. In the beginning it was more about revenge against Raph.


With us, the war began over a matter of opinion.  Dadds didn't like what we had to say.  All I did to get his wrath was voice my opinion on the state of his corp at the time.  I also shared my opinions of the other active corps. It was not ment to insult anyone.  Dadds who I thought was my friend, yes like Rostin I began to see he wasn't too bad, tried to bully me into retracting my statement. Had he asked nicely I might have considered it. But I don't respond well to bullying. So I refused. So he declared war. Joolz the leader of ITO, allies to IMG, suggested he calm down and said he understood how it might look that way from my point of view. He never once said I was right.  But Dadds declared war on him as well.  It was after this point I contacted jake myself to inform him of what was going on. I figured he was a reasonable guy.  That he would at least look into the matter. But he didn't seem to want to believe a word I had to say.  Instead his words seemed to mirror things of how Dadds saw things.  Dadds had convinced him I was lieing. Jake never once came on here to check to see what happened here himself. He fully supported Dadds in his efforts without ever seeking the truth with his own eyes.  He could have but didn't.  Yes it was in ignorance that he did so.  But he did so anyways.  Making him just as guilty of betraying ITO as Dadds. Just as guilty for breaking their NAP with TGE.  Even after Dadds began to become less active Jake still attempted to come after both ITO and TGE.  If he really didn't support Dadds on all of this he would have bailed a lot sooner.  It wouldn't have taken a massive attack by Raph.  I am not trying to hide behind anything.   I am just presenting the evidence. Considering all there is, an apology is the least he can do.

As for me getting a little ticked off with Mythic. That is an entirely different matter between me and him. But it isn't anything serious and I am over it now.  What made me a little bad was Mythic told me he was going to go solo for a while.  He also gave me his word if he decided to join an alliance, no matter which one it was, he would send me a message letting me know.  I woke up to find that the night before he had joined you guys and had not bothered to send me a message.  So I felt a little insulted.  That was all.  I got a lot of respect for Mythic.  Which is one of the reasons it aggravated me.




Ok now Rostin. You need to understand how it looks to us from our point of view. First you ask us to leave him alone.  Then when we say we won't you suddenly decide to take him in.  You even asked if he would be safe if he joined your corp.  That right there told me you would do whatever it would take to keep him safe.  Asking us to leave him alone seemed to just be a formality. If you really wanted to just leave it up to us you would have delivered his message, asked us to leave him alone and left it at that.  By taking him in it just showed us you didn't really care how we answered your question.  This is the thing that most insulting to me and I think was insulting to Joolz.  Sargas may have been able to let that go, but we aren't Sargas.  I unlike Joolz did try to let that go though.  I didn't like it but you weren't violating the charter. But I can understand why Joolz didn't want to let it go. He sticks to his principals and is stubborn as hell.   Now we got your members talking to us like we are the bad guys.  I really don't appreciate their attitudes.  I am not even sure an apology from Jake is going to make things right between Jake, you guys and ITO now.   Why? Because of how we are being treated.  I have sat here and tried not to insult your people.  I have tried to explain things reasonably.  Joolz I understand hasn't helped matters but your people are just making things worse. They are fanning the flames.  The more they do so the more insulted we become and more it looks like your corp doesn't care about peace at all.  I believe you do.  But I am having doubts about your members.  I spent the entire day offline because I didn't even feel like dealing with all this.   I am tired of it.   I am closing this thread now and I hope I get Jake unblocked now so can get this entire thing worked out.  It seems clear further discussion here with you guys is only going to make things worse and I urge everyone to just drop the matter entirely on this forum.  Rostin if you wish to discuss this elsewhere we can.